The Killing of George Floyd: The Last Straw?

[Dord]

13 hours ago, MigL said:

( although I've never heard of a black mass murderer )

I found this (untested) source that suggests that there have been 118 USA mass shootings in the previous 38 years which averages at about one a quarter.

It also suggests that just over 50% are perpetrated by whites.  Or, alternatively, just under 50% by non-whites:

 

Quote

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

This statistic shows the number of mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and February 26, 2020, by race and ethnicity of the shooter(s). Between 1982 and February 2020, 64 out of 118 mass shootings were initiated by White shooters.

[...]

White 64
Black 20
Latino 10
Asian 8
Other 5
Unknown/unclear 6
Native American 3

 

 

SHM

[Dord]

2 hours ago, Dord said:

SHM

^SMH. oops

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 6/24/2020 at 9:47 PM, iNow said:

The fact that you mention black on black violence at all is itself a problem.

It may be. It's a sensitive topic. Ignoring it may be a problem as well.

On 6/24/2020 at 9:47 PM, iNow said:

Violence tends to be more common within neighborhoods and neighborhoods tend to group like ethnicities together. That’s the only explanation needed. Proximity.

True, according to the Wiki link you provided:

"Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of White victims killed by Whites and 93% of African American victims killed by African Americans."

On 6/24/2020 at 9:47 PM, iNow said:

Its a function of proximity, not a function of ethnicity.  

Proximity is certainly a factor, but not the only one. It's not an inherent function of race, so if that's what you mean I agree.

On 6/24/2020 at 9:47 PM, iNow said:

And yet every time we speak of the disparate experience within the US “justice” system of our black neighbors and family, otherwise well intentioned people like yourself put forth the old canard of black on black crime. 

Ask yourself, how come nobody ever speaks of white on white crime or Asian on Asian crime even though those are also more common for the same proximity reasons cited above?

It’s almost certainly because the black on black crime idea is yet another distraction that we’ve simply become desensitized to, and it’s a tangent which keeps us from focusing upon and solving the real problems at play within the system itself. 

The Wiki link you provided again: 

"According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher."

Much of this depends on the US police/judicial system (including the source of the stats). If you choose to discount that 100% (even when/where if it isn't true), and instead choose to believe the disparities in crime and incarceration rates are all on them, are you going to solve the problem? You vilify (almost) all police/justices, and let other socio economic factors off the hook...why change any of that...let's just blame the police...even the good ones.

 

Not saying you do that...but why wouldn't anyone if they believed the crime rate was exactly the same (despite the conditions) and looked at the conviction/incarceration rates?

Let's not worry about poverty...let's abolish the police...like that will help.

[iNow]

Nobody here is speaking in absolutes, JCM. Also, the people calling to defund ir dismantle the police are doing so in order for us to focus MORE on poverty and social safety net programs, so that last sentence about “let’s not worry about poverty” rings off-key. 

The higher rates for blacks ties directly to the disparate experience with police and the justice system more broadly. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

Nobody here is speaking in absolutes, JCM. Also, the people calling to defund ir dismantle the police are doing so in order for us to focus MORE on poverty and social safety net programs, so that last sentence about “let’s not worry about poverty” rings off-key. 

The higher rates for blacks ties directly to the disparate experience with police and the justice system more broadly. 

So you believe that's the majority of the problem?

Edited June 26, 2020 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

Let me say this another way: Their disparate experience is directly tied to the numbers

[J.C.MacSwell]

27 minutes ago, iNow said:

Let me say this another way: Their disparate experience is directly tied to the numbers

Fair enough. I agree with that, and the numbers are tied to the disparate experience.

What are the root causes? 

[iNow]

Our evolution as tribal primates / mostly hairless apes whose ancestors spent more time warring with non-kin than cooperating together for greater common good... cooperation being a relatively recent addition to our species toolkit. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by iNow

[MigL]

It seems that Seattle's 'CHOP' zone is to be dismantled.

https://6abc.com/seattle-will-de-escalate-and-dismantle-chop-autonomous-zone-mayor-/6261518/

Apparently, after one homicide, two other shootings, reports of assaults, robberies, rapes and multiple cases of arson, it was decided that society, in general, is just like cops;  some idiots spoil it for everybody.
Or should we assume that there is a systemic problem with 'utopia'.
( yeah, I'm being a little inflammatory; I enjoyed this thread, and want to get it re-started )

[dimreepr]

14 hours ago, MigL said:

Or should we assume that there is a systemic problem with 'utopia'.

Of course we should, we can't find no-place; but we can find a better-place, even if you don't want to look...

[MigL]

My apologies for trying to convince you resurrection is real, by bringing this thread back to life.

Derek Chauvin has rightfully been  found guilty of causing George Floyd's death.
The justice system worked the way it was supposed to work, and all's well that ends well.

Why then, did the whole process outside of court leave me with such a sour taste in my mouth ?
Why were commentators and politicians so willing to politicise the issue?
Why is America always looking at things in terms of black and white, republican and democrat viewpoints, instead of in terms of nuanced justice ?

If a Republican says "f we don't like the outcome of this process, we need to get more confrontational", everyone lose their shit. It is called an incitement to insurrection ( rightfully so ) and people are still talking about months later.

Yet when someone like California's Maxine Waters says almost those exact words regarding a trial, no-one bats an eye.
How is that also not incitement to violence, and overturning law by force ?
Is incitement to violence and overturning law, acceptable, when you agree with the cause ?
M Waters has made quite a few controversial remarks, but everyone seems to give her a pass.
Maybe some ( not all ) democrats need to take a good look in the mirror; some of them might be seeing republicans looking back.

[zapatos]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

If a Republican says "f we don't like the outcome of this process, we need to get more confrontational", everyone lose their shit. It is called an incitement to insurrection ( rightfully so ) and people are still talking about months later.

Yet when someone like California's Maxine Waters says almost those exact words regarding a trial, no-one bats an eye.

I don't think we are watching the same news broadcasts. House Republicans tried to censure her for her remarks.

[MigL]

nd where is the rightful indignation from her fellow democrats?
Those same democrats who denounce D Trump and his cohorts for inciting the idiots who marched and lay seige to the capital?
Are you happy that your political parties have no integrity and simply play political tit-for-tat ?

Wasn't that the whole idea of getting rid of D Trump ?
You should demand better from your politicians, because from the outside ( Canada ) it can seem difficult to tell the difference between some democrats and some republicans.

[iNow]

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

The justice system worked the way it was supposed to work, and all's well that ends well.

Indeed, but it’s important to acknowledge that this is really one of the only times we can ever remember it doing so when an officer killed a citizen. 

There are about 1,000 fatal police killings every single year in the US. Over 16 years, that’s 16,000. Of course some are justified, but over the course of the last 16 years only 139 officers were arrested for murder or manslaughter when these deaths occurred during a duty shift. Of those, only 44 were convicted, and of those 37 didn’t even serve time in prison*. 

And right now several states (like my own and Florida) are actively making it HARDER than it already is to prosecute police misconduct. 

I’m grateful there was accountability in this particular case, but we’re still rather far from seeing justice in our justice system.

 

*source

28 minutes ago, MigL said:

Yet when someone like California's Maxine Waters says almost those exact words regarding a trial, no-one bats an eye.

There’s been lots of eye batting. It was a really dumb thing for her to say and many have called her out on it. Your premise is that it’s being ignored and accepted, and your premise is false. 

[zapatos]

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

Are you happy that your political parties have no integrity and simply play political tit-for-tat ?

I don't think that is a fair assessment of my political parties. There is quite a bit of integrity and there is also quite a bit of political tit-for-tat.

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

Wasn't that the whole idea of getting rid of D Trump ?

No. The idea of getting rid of Trump was that he was doing an unacceptable level of harm to the US and the world.

23 minutes ago, MigL said:

You should demand better from your politicians, because from the outside ( Canada ) it can seem difficult to tell the difference between some democrats and some republicans.

I do demand better from my politicians. They don't seem to listen.

I have noticed that Canadians often can't tell the difference between Democrats and Republican and that they often find the Republicans to have more integrity than Democrats in general, which I find kind of disturbing. While there is plenty of partisan politics going on, I don't find the parties to be equivalent.

[MigL]

12 hours ago, zapatos said:

I do demand better from my politicians. They don't seem to listen.

I understand and sympathize, Zap.
They'll only listen to votes.
But when you only have two parties, the best you can do is vote for the one that will do the least damage, and in the last election that was a no-contest.
That doesn't mean democrats shouldn't get called out for doing and saying wrong/stupid stuff.

[zapatos]

20 minutes ago, MigL said:

That doesn't mean democrats shouldn't get called out for doing and saying wrong/stupid stuff.

I agree. Everyone should get called out for such things.

[J.C.MacSwell]

18 hours ago, zapatos said:

I don't think that is a fair assessment of my political parties. There is quite a bit of integrity and there is also quite a bit of political tit-for-tat.

No. The idea of getting rid of Trump was that he was doing an unacceptable level of harm to the US and the world.

I do demand better from my politicians. They don't seem to listen.

I have noticed that Canadians often can't tell the difference between Democrats and Republican and that they often find the Republicans to have more integrity than Democrats in general, which I find kind of disturbing. While there is plenty of partisan politics going on, I don't find the parties to be equivalent.

 

 I'm not sure if this statement is true or false. I do think they align more with Democrat values, and I think that's a good thing.

Based on that, maybe it's just that the integrity of the Democrats most featured in the news seems overly disappointing.

 

 

[beecee]

From an outsiders view, from the other side of the world, its pretty obvious that excessive heavy handed police actions resulted in a man's death going on the videos of the incident, and that the guilty verdict was the only just outcome. 

Justice was served. In saying that I have sympathy for genuine, honest, reasonable law enforcement officers, that generally carry out their duties as they should, and face dangers and difficult situations every day. The Chauvin's of this world have a lot to answer for.

[MigL]

No problem at all with the G Floyd murder conviction, Beecee.
D Chauvin got what he deserved.

However the current political climate and politicization of these incidents, leads to cases like this Columbus incident.

Columbus, Ohio, shooting: Police officer shot and killed a Black teenage girl holding a knife, police say and bodycam videFamily ofo shows - CNN

Family, black community leaders, political commmentators, some democrats, and agitators should realize that 'to serve and protect' also applies to the intended victims of the teenage girl who was shot.

 

[beecee]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

 

However the current political climate and politicization of these incidents, leads to cases like this Columbus incident.

Columbus, Ohio, shooting: Police officer shot and killed a Black teenage girl holding a knife, police say and bodycam videFamily ofo shows - CNN

Family, black community leaders, political commmentators, some democrats, and agitators should realize that 'to serve and protect' also applies to the intended victims of the teenage girl who was shot.

A terrible situation and one I certainly would not like to be forced to make a decision on.

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Based on that, maybe it's just that the integrity of the Democrats most featured in the news seems overly disappointing.

 

Could be. Who integrity in particular seems overly disappointing do you think?

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Family, black community leaders, political commmentators, some democrats, and agitators should realize that 'to serve and protect' also applies to the intended victims of the teenage girl who was shot.

 

I hate this one. From my perspective the officer really didn't have much of a choice, but I wish they'd come up with a weapon that was as sure as a gun but less lethal. Maybe a gun that shoots .22 instead of 9mm rounds? Whatever it is, we've got to come up with something that keeps so many Americans from being killed by other Americans.

[beecee]

9 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I hate this one. From my perspective the officer really didn't have much of a choice,

Based on what I know, my thoughts also on this case in question...damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Who would want to be a copper!

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, zapatos said:

Could be. Who integrity in particular seems overly disappointing do you think?

I hate this one. From my perspective the officer really didn't have much of a choice, but I wish they'd come up with a weapon that was as sure as a gun but less lethal. Maybe a gun that shoots .22 instead of 9mm rounds? Whatever it is, we've got to come up with something that keeps so many Americans from being killed by other Americans.

In Germany officers are trained in less lethal gun use (e.g. shooting in the leg) which is against policy in NA.

Not sure whether it would have been feasible in this situation.

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 hours ago, zapatos said:

Could be. Who integrity in particular seems overly disappointing do you think?

 

Most recently and most obviously Maxine Waters. Pelosi might seem less overly disappointing, given her track record.