fredreload Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 Introduction: As you know, Argon gas is an insulator used in the light bulb, but when it is given enough current it creates a chain reaction on the gas molecules and turns into Argon plasma like those inert gas globe shown below. This post is about theorizing the amount of energy/electron density you can generate from Argon gas. Observation: So I took a look at ICP listed below. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductively_coupled_plasma It generates an electron density of 10^15 electrons per cm^3 using electromagnetic inductive process, but that is not enough energy for me, I am looking for 10^31 electrons per cm^3. To achieve this I will have to first compress the Argon gas to some multiples of the atmospheric pressure, I am thinking 5 atm. But I will need a container to do this, I am looking for a really strong type of glass that would withstand the pressure and the thermal energy that would be generated in this medium some 1 million kelvin. But at 5 atm it is just (10^15) * 5, it is not anywhere close to 10^31, and I am not even sure if you can light up the Argon plasma at this pressure. I am thinking of beaming a laser at this Argon gas pressurized in a glass medium and hopefully it would achieve the result of 10^31 electrons per cm^3. Like what Iron Man did here. If you are thinking of plasma fusion it generates an order of 10^21 electrons per meter^3, much less than the desire results. Although it is much more easily controlled through a magnetic field. So my question is. 1. How do you generate a 10^31 electrons per cm^3 of electron density from Argon gas? Let me know at what pressure(atm) and the way to light the plasma gas uniformly(wire spark vs laser). 2. What type of material could withstand the heat and pressure generated from 10^31 electrons per cm^3 density of Argon gas?
Strange Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, fredreload said: This post is about theorizing the amount of energy/electron density you can generate from Argon gas. What makes you think you can generate energy from argon? It is chemically inert. And, as far as I know, all its isotopes are stable. So it is not a source of either chemical or nuclear energy. Generating a plasma requires you to provide energy. 2 hours ago, fredreload said: 1. How do you generate a 10^31 electrons per cm^3 of electron density from Argon gas? Let me know at what pressure(atm) and the way to light the plasma gas uniformly(wire spark vs laser). This is very near to a vacuum. (It takes much less energy to create a plasma at low pressure.) Sorry. I misread the number Edited June 15, 2020 by Strange
swansont Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 Why is this speculations? Seems to me this is a matter of established physics. Anyway, 10^31 electrons/cm^3 probably isn’t anywhere close to happening. That’s ~10 million moles. How do you get that kind of density?
fredreload Posted June 15, 2020 Author Posted June 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, swansont said: Why is thus speculations? Seems to me this is a matter of established physics. Anyway, 10^31 electrons/cm^3 probably isn’t anywhere close to happening. That’s ~10 million moles. How do you get that kind of density? My fault, it is over meter cube as I checked just now. This is from an article. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1143/JJAP.38.3712/pdf?fbclid=IwAR0DqxsXt7ZqCLMHI_Rxopgn2iujRPBLWk4w7PAu73uEjO8YPKTrbdR3B1Q This is on 150atm(150 times atmospheric pressure), which get 10^27 electrons per meter cube. Although I am yet to find an energy equation for plasma. Do I assume 1 ev for each electron, kindly give me an answer @@ thanks, (1 eV = 1.6 x 10-19 Joules)
Strange Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 7 minutes ago, fredreload said: Although I am yet to find an energy equation for plasma. Do I assume 1 ev for each electron, kindly give me an answer @@ thanks, (1 eV = 1.6 x 10-19 Joules) The ionisation energy for argon can be found easily. For example: Quote These tables list values of molar ionization energies, measured in kJ mol−1. This is the energy per mole necessary to remove electrons from gaseous atoms or atomic ions. The first molar ionization energy applies to the neutral atoms. The second, third, etc., molar ionization energy applies to the further removal of an electron from a singly, doubly, etc., charged ion. For ionization energies measured in the unit eV, see Ionization energies of the elements (data page). All data from rutherfordium onwards is predicted. 18 Ar argon 1520.6 2665.8 3931 5771 7238 8781 11,995 13,842 40,760 46,186 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_ionization_energies_of_the_elements This is the amount of energy you need to provide to create a plasma. So, if you have 10^31 atoms (to create 10^31 electrons) then that is about 10 million moles. So the energy needed is 10^7 * 1520 kJ or about 10^10 joules. Which is a lot.
swansont Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 2 hours ago, fredreload said: My fault, it is over meter cube as I checked just now. This is from an article. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1143/JJAP.38.3712/pdf?fbclid=IwAR0DqxsXt7ZqCLMHI_Rxopgn2iujRPBLWk4w7PAu73uEjO8YPKTrbdR3B1Q This is on 150atm(150 times atmospheric pressure), which get 10^27 electrons per meter cube. Although I am yet to find an energy equation for plasma. That puts you 4 orders of magnitude short 2 hours ago, fredreload said: Do I assume 1 ev for each electron, kindly give me an answer @@ thanks, (1 eV = 1.6 x 10-19 Joules) No, don’t assume that. Go find the ionization energy of Argon.
John Cuthber Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 It's never a good sign when someone says "I want to do this" and cites a clip from an action movie. Also 7 hours ago, fredreload said: I am looking for a really strong type of glass that would withstand the pressure and the thermal energy that would be generated in this medium some 1 million kelvin. Nothing will stand a million K.
swansont Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 Aluminum has a number density of 0.1 moles/cm^3 (2.7 g/cm^3 vs 27g atomic weight) You’re asking for a density 100x higher. Not happening.
fredreload Posted June 16, 2020 Author Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, Strange said: The ionisation energy for argon can be found easily. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_ionization_energies_of_the_elements This is the amount of energy you need to provide to create a plasma. So, if you have 10^31 atoms (to create 10^31 electrons) then that is about 10 million moles. So the energy needed is 10^7 * 1520 kJ or about 10^10 joules. Which is a lot. Thanks for the calculation, appreciate it. You are missing three zeros, it is actually 10^13 joules. Conversion from KJ net three zeros. Edited June 16, 2020 by fredreload 1
Strange Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 1 hour ago, fredreload said: Thanks for the calculation, appreciate it. You are missing three zeros, it is actually 10^13 joules. Conversion from KJ net three zeros. Well spotted. (I suppose you wouldn't believe I did that deliberately as a test? No, I thought not.) Quote 10^13 Joules: Energy of the maximum fuel an Airbus A380 can carry (320,000 liters[145] of Jet A-1[136])[146] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(energy)#1012_to_1017_J
fredreload Posted June 16, 2020 Author Posted June 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Strange said: Well spotted. (I suppose you wouldn't believe I did that deliberately as a test? No, I thought not.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(energy)#1012_to_1017_J Silly Strange always hiding something :D, I found the full article with a schematic of the experimental setup. Though they did not mention the material used for the chamber. http://epsppd.epfl.ch/Praha/WEB/98ICPP_W/C019PR.PDF
Strange Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 50 minutes ago, fredreload said: I found the full article with a schematic of the experimental setup. Though they did not mention the material used for the chamber. http://epsppd.epfl.ch/Praha/WEB/98ICPP_W/C019PR.PDF As the plasma was only a few millimetres in size and at the centre of the gas chamber, I would guess it is made of metal. Seems the obvious material strong enough to withstand the pressure.
fredreload Posted June 16, 2020 Author Posted June 16, 2020 17 minutes ago, Strange said: As the plasma was only a few millimetres in size and at the centre of the gas chamber, I would guess it is made of metal. Seems the obvious material strong enough to withstand the pressure. I guess we need to contain it in a magnetic field coils. Argon gas is not paramagnetic but plasma is paramagnetic.
swansont Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 4 hours ago, fredreload said: I guess we need to contain it in a magnetic field coils. Argon gas is not paramagnetic but plasma is paramagnetic. Citation?
Strange Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 5 hours ago, fredreload said: I guess we need to contain it in a magnetic field coils. Argon gas is not paramagnetic but plasma is paramagnetic. What magnetic field coils? There is nothing about that in the paper. The laser pulse lasts a few picoseconds and is focussed on a point a fraction of a millimetre in size. (Ironically, given the title of the thread, some excimer lasers use argon)
fredreload Posted June 17, 2020 Author Posted June 17, 2020 18 hours ago, Strange said: What magnetic field coils? There is nothing about that in the paper. The laser pulse lasts a few picoseconds and is focussed on a point a fraction of a millimetre in size. (Ironically, given the title of the thread, some excimer lasers use argon) It is not in the paper, I am looking into plasma fusion reactor like Tokamak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokamak Thought this can be applied to Argon plasma with magnetic confinement, just not the fusion part. 19 hours ago, swansont said: Citation? Noted above
swansont Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 24 minutes ago, fredreload said: Noted above Where, exactly? Not the video; that wasn't a plasma. The tokamak link says plasma is diamagnetic.
fredreload Posted June 17, 2020 Author Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) I am not sure I found it on Google when checking if plasma is paramagnetic @@, below quote from Wikipedia shows that plasma could be controlled by a magnetic field though. Magnetic confinement When heated to fusion temperatures, the electrons in atoms disassociate, resulting in a fluid of nuclei and electrons known as a plasma. Unlike electrically neutral atoms, a plasma is electrically conductive, and can, therefore, be manipulated by electrical or magnetic fields.[16] Edited June 17, 2020 by fredreload
swansont Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, fredreload said: I am not sure I found it on Google when checking if plasma is paramagnetic @@, below quote from Wikipedia shows that plasma could be controlled by a magnetic field though. Magnetic confinement When heated to fusion temperatures, the electrons in atoms disassociate, resulting in a fluid of nuclei and electrons known as a plasma. Unlike electrically neutral atoms, a plasma is electrically conductive, and can, therefore, be manipulated by electrical or magnetic fields.[16] Charges are moving around, so of course it reacts to a magnetic field. That's a very different claim from saying it's paramagnetic.
Strange Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 3 hours ago, fredreload said: Thought this can be applied to Argon plasma with magnetic confinement, just not the fusion part. If there is no fusion what is the point? You are just pouring vast amounts of energy in to maintain a plasma. For what?
fredreload Posted June 18, 2020 Author Posted June 18, 2020 11 hours ago, Strange said: If there is no fusion what is the point? You are just pouring vast amounts of energy in to maintain a plasma. For what? Space jumping >.<. Is it possible to increase air pressure in a confined magnetic field?
swansont Posted June 18, 2020 Posted June 18, 2020 7 hours ago, fredreload said: Is it possible to increase air pressure in a confined magnetic field? As they are independent* phenomena, sure. *in most cases
John Cuthber Posted June 18, 2020 Posted June 18, 2020 7 hours ago, fredreload said: Space jumping >.<. Was that meant to be some sort of answer to the question Strange had asked?
fredreload Posted June 18, 2020 Author Posted June 18, 2020 1 hour ago, swansont said: As they are independent* phenomena, sure. *in most cases Something like star formation, the factor I need to add in is pressure. 10 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: Was that meant to be some sort of answer to the question Strange had asked? I was kidding, man you are too serious = =.
John Cuthber Posted June 18, 2020 Posted June 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, fredreload said: Something like star formation, the factor I need to add in is pressure. I was kidding, man you are too serious = =. Do you actually plan to answer the question?
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