Discussing racism/bigotry (split from The Killing of George Floyd: The Last Straw?)

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

This is where I feel you're wrong-wrong-wrong, and it's a fundamental mistake that's polluting your whole outlook on this issue. Calling out reprehensible behavior is NOT meant to hurt anybody, it's meant to STOP THE HURT. Once again, you're making the wrong person the victim. 

Perhaps you should decide on a definition of racism that allows no equivocation. For me, anybody who considers any group of humans to be less than human is a flat-out racist. And you know what? If that's truly the way they feel, if they think they're better because of the color of their skin, I want this divide you're talking about to be spotlighted. I want to know who persecutes other humans in this way, and I want the whole world to know I disagree with them completely. 

I have no problem spotting racism, and I feel racists can't be trusted to live among others in a gun culture with a lack of informative media like the US. They undermine the very meaning of living together in a society. I'm more concerned with racism's true victims than with alienating obvious racist assholes. 

 

Nice...

Maybe you should stick to explaining why your outlook is so much better, and will lead to better outcomes. I don't see MigL's goals on this being substantially different from yours, outside of him being substantially more open to other's views. (and I'm not referring to racist ones)

7 hours ago, Strange said:

Nope. Anyone who has someone come round and do some plumbing (or, less frequently, some physics) can call that person a plumber. 

You just have to see them engaged in the act of plumbing. They can then be called a plumber.

 

I think you understood the point, but go ahead and pick apart the analogy as less than perfect

7 hours ago, Strange said:

 

I would be suspicious of someone's motives who voted against something like this if the RCMP is systemically racist

 

That's fair. What's unfair is acting on those suspicions as if you assume they are true and assuming worst motives. Especially if there is a more diplomatic, sensible and potentially more effective approach available. If it's clear cut racism let's call it out, but we should feel an onus to prove it rather than assume it.

[zapatos]

26 minutes ago, MigL said:

As I said to Phi, quote where Essereio states that black Americans are less than human.

No thank you. I don't buy it when Trump pretends he didn't mean what he said, I didn't engage with Essereio when he tried to obfuscate his words, and I don't intend to to get bogged down in the minutia with you as you defend him. You suggesting he is not racist if I cannot find a specific quote from him is not a compelling argument. Possibly we're all wrong about him and you are right, but it is also possible you cannot see what the rest of us can because knowingly or not, you have bought into some aspects of racism. I've done it myself in the past.

[MigL]

24 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Possibly we're all wrong about him and you are right, but it is also possible you cannot see what the rest of us can because knowingly or not, you have bought into some aspects of racism. I've done it myself in the past.

Ahh...
So Zap, racism has the same definition as pornography.
"I can't define it, but I know what it is when I see it"
( can't remember the totally subjective judge who said that )

[DrmDoc]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Nowhere does he mention he 'hates' any group based on skin color.
That is an assumption you ( and others ) jump to, based on his opinion about loud obnoxious people.
 

Perhaps not overtly, but....

essereio wrote: 

"You're twisting everything without seeing the bigger picture of why a few or maybe a good portion of black people turn off a lot of other people. It's not just white people who are extremely annoyed by the rap/hip pop garbage personas. Loud music, loud voices, insults to innocent people, drugs, gun shootings and the list goes on. You get what you give.

Injustice? Verbal abuse on a consistent basis is a lot worse than physical abuse. Black people are much less likely to be taken seriously because of the rude behavior/rap persona of a few. I feel sorry for a good portion of young blacks who get brainwashed by the rap/hip hop music and then go on towards causing psychological issues towards society."

In this example, essereio's references here to "black people" and their "...rap/hip pop garbage personas...loud voices, insults...drugs, gun shootings, etc..." speaks to his emotions rather than fact or reason because these are not distinctions anymore adherent to a "few or maybe a good portion of black people" than they are to humans of different pigment.  True, he didn't loudly proclaim his hate with that singular word, he proclaimed his hate through a totality of words delivered through his various comments in this forum.  Like systemic racism, hate can be subtly expressed through contrived notions that have no basis in fact or reason. 

[MigL]

I don't follow, Doc.
Do you like rap music and the 'gangsta' culture, and disrespect for authority, it promotes ?
What about the misogyny, where every woman is a 'bitch' ?
What about the fixation that it's all about the money ?

But usually I don't even listen to the lyrics; I just dislike ( hate is too strong a word ) rap music ( even when Eminem or Vanilla Ice ( ha ! ) do it.
That is what I get out of the above, if I keep an open mind.
If my mind is already made up that the writer is racist, then I 'see' it as hate for all black people.
 

[J.C.MacSwell]

27 minutes ago, DrmDoc said:

Perhaps not overtly, but....

essereio wrote: 

"You're twisting everything without seeing the bigger picture of why a few or maybe a good portion of black people turn off a lot of other people. It's not just white people who are extremely annoyed by the rap/hip pop garbage personas. Loud music, loud voices, insults to innocent people, drugs, gun shootings and the list goes on. You get what you give.

Injustice? Verbal abuse on a consistent basis is a lot worse than physical abuse. Black people are much less likely to be taken seriously because of the rude behavior/rap persona of a few. I feel sorry for a good portion of young blacks who get brainwashed by the rap/hip hop music and then go on towards causing psychological issues towards society."

In this example, essereio's references here to "black people" and their "...rap/hip pop garbage personas...loud voices, insults...drugs, gun shootings, etc..." speaks to his emotions rather than fact or reason because these are not distinctions anymore adherent to a "few or maybe a good portion of black people" than they are to humans of different pigment.  True, he didn't loudly proclaim his hate with that singular word, he proclaimed his hate through a totality of words delivered through his various comments in this forum.  Like systemic racism, hate can be subtly expressed through contrived notions that have no basis in fact or reason. 

Maybe he's racist. He certainly likes to generalize and dislikes loud music. Maybe he finds it intimidating. Maybe he's not racist but an intolerant bigot.

But at least there is this "because of the rude behavior/rap persona of a few." So maybe there is hope for him somewhere.

I'm fine with banning him. We don't need that crap. And I understand the limits of patience to try to change him. I just don't see the need, or benefit, to insulting him as well, especially with all the neg reps on his posts (and positive ones for those insulting him)

These people get to vote (and like everyone else, should be encouraged to do so). They may also come into position to influence others. 

 

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

I don't follow, Doc.
Do you like rap music and the 'gangsta' culture, and disrespect for authority, it promotes ?
What about the misogyny, where every woman is a 'bitch' ?
What about the fixation that it's all about the money ?

But usually I don't even listen to the lyrics; I just dislike ( hate is too strong a word ) rap music ( even when Eminem or Vanilla Ice ( ha ! ) do it.
That is what I get out of the above, if I keep an open mind.
If my mind is already made up that the writer is racist, then I 'see' it as hate for all black people.
 

Not my cup of tea either but one of my sons works out to it...hopefully not on his way to causing "psychological issues to society".

[MigL]

I don't have a problem with banning Essereio either, JC.
Those are the rules of this forum, and I agreed to those rules when I signed up.

This is more about the 'discussion' that America ( and some other places ) need to have to resolve this issue, stop the protests which are infecting thousands ( if not millions ) with Covid-19, and move forward as ONE society; not several distinct ( and unequal ) groups.

PS    I was gonna post the lyrics to Ice T's Cop Killer, Jay Z's 99 Problems, and Snoop Dogg's Gin and Juice.
         But I get the feeling not too many forum members like rap music either.

Edited June 19, 2020 by MigL

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Ahh...
So Zap, racism has the same definition as pornography.
"I can't define it, but I know what it is when I see it"
( can't remember the totally subjective judge who said that )

Sorry, but like with most of life's subtleties, racists don't wear scarlet "R"'s on their sleeves. We are required to listen to their dog whistles and innuendo, what they complain about and what they don't, to understand them. For most of us, we do not need to hear a person say "black Americans are less than human" to know what they think about black Americans.

[DrmDoc]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I don't follow, Doc.
Do you like rap music and the 'gangsta' culture, and disrespect for authority, it promotes ?
What about the misogyny, where every woman is a 'bitch' ?
What about the fixation that it's all about the money ?

But usually I don't even listen to the lyrics; I just dislike ( hate is too strong a word ) rap music ( even when Eminem or Vanilla Ice ( ha ! ) do it.
That is what I get out of the above, if I keep an open mind.
If my mind is already made up that the writer is racist, then I 'see' it as hate for all black people.
 

What you may have overlooked was Essereio's clear association of certain distasteful social tendencies (ex: loud music and voices, disrespect, drugs, and gun) specifically with "black people."  His rap music references were a means to characterize his perspective of a people rather than his or our dislike for a certain music genre.  "A good portion of black people", using Essereio's words, aren't anymore inherently loud, disrespectful, misogynistic, or into drugs and guns than a good portion of people of other racial distinctions.  It wasn't what he said about the music that's important here, it was how he used that music reference to describe a people.  Rap, as I understand, is a culture that engages people of multiple races. Admittedly, I'm no more a fan of rap music than my parents were fans of rock and roll.  It a generational thing and one I accept as the sound of all young people and not just people of color.

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by DrmDoc

[MigL]

So now I have made the almost exact same arguments that Essereio made ( other than the A Hitler comments ).
I have not gotten any neg reps, been called racist, or been banned.
What is the difference ?

Is it possibly that you guys somewhat know me, so I'm tolerated, and given the benefit of the doubt ?
Whereas Essereio was prejudged by all, not tolerated, and quickly 'convicted and sentenced' ?
Doesn't everybody deserve the benefit of the doubt, their opinions tolerated, and not to be prejudged ?
Isn't PREJUDICE and INTOLERANCE exactly what we are trying to eradicate in an unjust society ?

I'm not hearing those 'dog whistles' that you mention, Zap.

Edited June 20, 2020 by MigL

[zapatos]

32 minutes ago, MigL said:

I'm not hearing those 'dog whistles' that you mention, Zap.

Yes, I'm wondering if that is part of the disconnect. You suggest that we prejudge, while it seems to me that you fail to post-judge.

And we didn't pre-judge Essereio btw. It wasn't until after he spoke that he was judged.

In my opinion, no, not all opinions should be tolerated. That is pretty much what this whole thread is about.

[iNow]

52 minutes ago, MigL said:

I have not gotten any neg reps, been called racist, or been banned.
What is the difference ?

When you speak, it’s not hateful. When we reply, you respond reasonably. When you mention black peoples, it doesn’t sound like you equate them with cockroaches. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by iNow

[uncool]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

As I said to Phi, quote where Essereio states that black Americans are less than human.
He made some points about certain groups being loud and obnoxious, and that is certainly true, about blacks, whites, indigenous, etc.
One could say the protesters are loud and obnoxious, and they were composed of many different ethnic groups.
And he made the point about A Hitler trying to do good...

Generally speaking, I am on your side. In this specific case, they made a comment where it is difficult to interpret it in any way that isn't racist:

Quote

 Hitler wanted good for people. It's just that his actions were incorrect towards taking out the trash(religion).

The first part of this comment implies that the people that Hitler deliberately committed genocide against don't get to count as "people". The second part is so facially false in its misrepresentation of basic history that it indicates the writer is either a troll or such a committed racist that they don't even care about the genocide itself. Either way, a forum setting is not going to convince them to change their ways.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

So now I have made the almost exact same arguments that Essereio made ( other than the A Hitler comments ).
I have not gotten any neg reps, been called racist, or been banned.
What is the difference ?

Part of the difference is that they did more than express distaste. They used that distaste to make derogatory claims about black culture as a whole, and to dismiss the protests without even engaging with the basic claims of the protests, with a strong implication that black people don't deserve to protest.

On a  side note:

5 hours ago, MigL said:

Do you like rap music and the 'gangsta' culture, and disrespect for authority, it promotes ?

I strongly disagree with the implication that "disrespect for authority" is necessarily a problem. To a large extent, the protests are about the claim that that authority is being abused - and authority being abused should not be respected.

Edited June 20, 2020 by uncool

[DrmDoc]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

So now I have made the almost exact same arguments that Essereio made ( other than the A Hitler comments ).
I have not gotten any neg reps, been called racist, or been banned.
What is the difference ?

Is it possibly that you guys somewhat know me, so I'm tolerated, and given the benefit of the doubt ?
Whereas Essereio was prejudged by all, not tolerated, and quickly 'convicted and sentenced' ?
Doesn't everybody deserve the benefit of the doubt, their opinions tolerated, and not to be prejudged ?
Isn't PREJUDICE and INTOLERANCE exactly what we are trying to eradicate in an unjust society ?

I'm not hearing those 'dog whistles' that you mention, Zap.

No, your arguments weren't nearly the same in my view.  Essereio's comments were peppered with "black people this..." and "black people that..." without qualification.  The difference between his references to rap music and yours, for example, is that his regarded his view of black people exclusively while yours regarded a your view of music.  Unless your arguments also expressed your view of black people in that rap music is exclusively representative of black behavior and culture , then your arguments were not the same.  Misogyny and bad behaviors expressed through music are not exclusively black or exclusively black expressions.

[MigL]

I was just presenting my opinion as a means of furthering discussion.
Not fishing for compliments, INow.

[iNow]

It wasn’t a compliment. It was an accurate answer to your query. Idiot

 

 

Unsure how that’s gonna play in txt medium, but I mean it as a silly ribbing of a friend just so we’re clear 

Edited June 20, 2020 by iNow

[MigL]

I would like to add that over the years I've had numerous disagreements with INow ( and Ten oz, Phi for All, and many others ) in the Political  ( opinion based ) forum..
Quite a few times you've made me reconsider my position, and a few times, even discard my position, and come around to your point of view.
I'd like to think, you equally consider my opinion, and give it due thought.

This has come about because we've actually discussed our respective positions and have never outright dismissed each other's opinions.
Discussion does some good. Outright dismissal and banning does nothing other than removing that which we consider unpleasant.

[Royston]

On 6/19/2020 at 4:17 PM, Strange said:

It isn't meant to hurt. I don't understand why it would. If someone hates broccoli, would it hurt them to say they are a "broccoli hater"?

Surely the reasons why somebody hates broccoli are different to why somebody discriminates to a certain group of humans.

Quote

If someone hates some ethnic group, why would they care if that is pointed out? Wouldn't they be quietly pleased that their beliefs have been acknowledged?

 That entirely depends on who you're talking to. If it is a member of a far right group such as the EDL then yes ? If it's a naive 78 year old, then probably not. Are you not familiar with 'I'm not a racist, but...'

Quote

 

And is "white supremacist" an insult? It seems to be used pretty freely, even by respectable media. And I thought it was a label people used to identify themselves and their beliefs.

But "white supremacist" == "racist". By definition.

 

Because the term is used in a negative light, because it's extreme, it's synonymous with terrorist in a media context.

If you (quite rightly) take issue with racism, then calling somebody a racist is clearly a derogatory term.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Royston

[iNow]

Since it seems to bother folks so much, perhaps we should call them snowflakes instead