vedas and twist

[Othmane Dahi]

Hey guys,

Is vedas twisted? If so do we know when ?

[Eise]

51 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

Is vedas twisted? If so do we know when ?

Twisted? From what to what? 

[Othmane Dahi]

48 minutes ago, Eise said:

Twisted? From what to what? 

I am so sorry I am not english that's just the word I got from google translate. Anw what I mean is when people change the words of a religion's book

[Strange]

Corrupted might be a better word. But it can have quite negative connotations. Changed or evolved are more neutral.

The texts will have changed over time purely because of things like transcription errors. Whether anyone has deliberately changed them (eg to fit a particular interpretation) I couldn’t say

[Othmane Dahi]

21 hours ago, Strange said:

Corrupted might be a better word. But it can have quite negative connotations. Changed or evolved are more neutral.

The texts will have changed over time purely because of things like transcription errors. Whether anyone has deliberately changed them (eg to fit a particular interpretation) I couldn’t say

Okay thank you. But can't we approximate when did it start to change ?

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Othmane Dahi said:

Okay thank you. But can't we approximate when did it start to change ?

Soon after it was written down...

[Othmane Dahi]

Just now, dimreepr said:

Soon after it was written down...

Okay thank you. Any evidence ?

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Othmane Dahi said:

Okay thank you. Any evidence ?

Book's. 

[Othmane Dahi]

Just now, dimreepr said:

Book's. 

Can you cite one please

 

[dimreepr]

Stu the cockatoo is new at the zoo...

[Othmane Dahi]

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Stu the cockatoo is new at the zoo...

Thank you I will consult it 

[Strange]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Soon after it was written down...

It would be interesting to know whether oral or written traditions are more error prone. It seems obvious that memorising epic tales, etc would be less reliable than relying on written forms. But I bet its not that simple.

[Othmane Dahi]

5 hours ago, Strange said:

It would be interesting to know whether oral or written traditions are more error prone. It seems obvious that memorising epic tales, etc would be less reliable than relying on written forms. But I bet its not that simple.

It depends on how much people memorize it.

If there is a lot of people that memorize it and then when it was written down maybe there was a war and a lot of who memorizes it died and there is just a few written books and any group can write down their own version and change it 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Othmane Dahi

[Eise]

I think it makes no sense to say that the vedas were twisted or not. They have grown organically. There are so many reasons for a text to change, especially when it originally was an oral tradition. Without having the 'original' how would you see that the texts changed?

There are methods to find out which of the present versions we have are probably the oldest, but of course we can have no idea what the first written down version of the vedas were.

And then there are many reasons why texts change over time, just to name a few:

• errors when copying the texts
• corrections of (language) errors
• authors putting in their ideas into the texts, in good or ill faith

I only know a little about the history of Christian texts, which are of course not so old as the vedas, and also here already the problem exists that we do not know exactly what the original texts were. But we know copyists made errors, corrected errors, put in sentences or even complete stories, often because these copyists had a theological agenda to promote their version of Christianity. From some texts we know that there must have been more original texts, but they did not survive.

With the vedas this will be worse, because they were orally passed to others for a much longer time. In Christianity, especially the new testament, there are at most only about 100 years between the oral tradition and the first written down versions we have (often less: the gospels were written till about 100 years, the earliest one probably only 30 years, after Jesus' death). With the vedas it is several millennia before they were written down.

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, Strange said:

It would be interesting to know whether oral or written traditions are more error prone. It seems obvious that memorising epic tales, etc would be less reliable than relying on written forms. But I bet its not that simple.

TBH I think the oral tradition might be slightly more reliable than text based. 

Text is so much harder to convey complex meaning and context is often lost so much more quickly (that's why teacher's are often needed to fill in the blanks).  

In terms of this thread, syntax and semantics, both reduce the reliability of text in just a few year's, culture moves so fast that my grandad would struggle to understand my son, without me to explain and vice verca (or viky verty as my son says). 

Edited June 25, 2020 by dimreepr

[joigus]

It has been pointed out by Daniel Dennett that oral traditions become relatively reliable in preserving the fidelity of the message once the priestly class becomes numerous enough, society is more stable, and the chants and recitations acquire a form similar to what multiplexing is in Von Neumann's architecture of modern computers. The Brahmins playing the role of the neuron or the integrated circuit element. The Vedas have been recited for millennia by many generations of Brahmin after the Arians settled in northern India and Pakistan.

IMO this multiplexing, helped by social stability, must contribute to the stability of the message too --whatever the initial amount of nonsense or altered-sense "bits" is in the initial message. But neither form is immune to the possibility of further additions, re-editings, and the like.

Interesting case in point, what @Eise mentions: The Bible. It is well known today that the virgin birth of Jesus from Mary is a translation mistake from Hebrew to Greek that got stuck on the Septuagint. After that, the mis-translation was propagated with a high degree of fidelity. (Remember: multi-plexing and relatively high social stability for the priestly class.) But mis-translation it was. "Almah," the word for "young woman" was translated as "parthenos" (Greek for "virgin"), while the Hebrew "betulah" (the real word for "virgin") appears nowhere in the original, as corroborated against the Dead Sea Scrolls by numerous scholars.

But the origins of the Vedas are shrouded in mystery. We do know that this kind of culture came from a people in distress, coming from the Andronovo region and in migration, because the course of their main rivers had changed (the Greek-Russian archaeologist Viktor Sarianidi has made extensive excavations of the area.) That is the time when the oldest Vedas could have been more susceptible to change IMO. Following the Vedas we learn that they fought battles against the peoples already living in northern India and Pakistan. Did they lose some of their first documents and decide to re-write them in their minds or in texts? We don't know, or I don't know if we know.

[dimreepr]

43 minutes ago, joigus said:

We do know that this kind of culture came from a people in distress,

That seems to be a constant in, most, religious text's/stories, when a great person explains why we don't need to be distressed.

Edit/ and leads the way to a less stressful life.

Nice post BTW +1

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by dimreepr

[joigus]

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That seems to be a constant in, most, religious text's/stories, when a great person explains why we don't need to be distressed.

Nice post BTW +1

 

Agree. Spot-on observation too. +1. As the Dead Sea Scrools seem to reveal Christ-like figures were already starting to appear (the Teacher of Righteousness) near the Dead Sea already 100 years before Christianity. Those were definitely times of distress for the Jews too.

[dimreepr]

18 minutes ago, joigus said:

Agree. Spot-on observation too. +1. As the Dead Sea Scrools seem to reveal Christ-like figures were already starting to appear (the Teacher of Righteousness) near the Dead Sea already 100 years before Christianity. Those were definitely times of distress for the Jews too.

I often wondered who the teacher was, John the Baptist seems more likely, but Jesus was more skilful in the art of PR...

[joigus]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I often wondered who the teacher was, John the Baptist seems more likely, but Jesus was more skilful in the art of PR...

There seems to be an insurmountable time gap with either John the Baptist or Jesus as possibilities. Lawrence Shiffman has argued very eloquently against that hypothesis IMO. His arguments rest on archaic Hebrew calligraphy, rather than ¹⁴C. He's convinced me, anyway, that it couldn't possibly have been anybody during the Roman invasion, but someone pre-dating that, during a Greek invasion scenario. Which makes it even more interesting along the lines that you're suggesting, because it would mean that religious leaders of small flocks fleeing Jerusalem's central authority and establishing a new brand of Judaism in the desert already was a relatively common phenomenon 100 years before. As you said: Leaders for time of hardship. This line of inquiry resonates with me, at least, because I think it's far more important to understand the appearance of religions based on the culture and the historical background than actually give a name or a biography, or finding the missing piece of the cross.

[Strange]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

TBH I think the oral tradition might be slightly more reliable than text based. 

Text is so much harder to convey complex meaning and context is often lost so much more quickly (that's why teacher's are often needed to fill in the blanks).  

In terms of this thread, syntax and semantics, both reduce the reliability of text in just a few year's, culture moves so fast that my grandad would struggle to understand my son, without me to explain and vice verca (or viky verty as my son says). 

I have a vague recollection of some studies on this (presumably based on versions of oral tales written down at different times) and it is remarkably accurate. In part, perhaps, because of the importance attached to the stories and to getting them right (and that the storytellers, for want of a better word) are highly respected in the society. And maybe the use of music (and actions/dance) helps reinforce the memories.

[dimreepr]

21 hours ago, joigus said:

Which makes it even more interesting along the lines that you're suggesting, because it would mean that religious leaders of small flocks fleeing Jerusalem's central authority and establishing a new brand of Judaism in the desert already was a relatively common phenomenon 100 years before. As you said: Leaders for time of hardship.

I allways imagined they just understood what the Torah was trying to teach, hence Jesus, for want of a better name, said they don't need to abandon it; I can't remember the quote which has been used to discredit both, by taking it out of context.

Essentially the message resonates through history, because we all need to stop seeing a future, that we've been primed to fear.

https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus-references-to-old-testament-scriptures/

 

[joigus]

30 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

[...] the quote which has been used to discredit both, by taking it out of context.

Maybe an interesting book (I haven't read but I've heard about) in that regard could be Misquoting Jesus.

When you take a religion to a different geographical region there are bound to be changes. That's what happened to Christianism: Sabbath --> Sunday (Apollo's cult by Constantine required that change;) drop circumcision and kosher, etc.

I'm sure the Zoroastrians who wrote the Vedas were forced to similar changes when they passed from places like Kazakhstan to northern India.

Edited June 26, 2020 by joigus
Constantin --> Constantine

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, joigus said:

Maybe an interesting book (I haven't read but I've heard about) in that regard could be Misquoting Jesus.

When you take a religion to a different geographical region there are bound to be changes. That's what happened to Christianism: Sabbath --> Sunday (Apollo's cult by Constantin required that change;) drop circumcision and kosher, etc.

I'm sure the Zoroastrians who wrote the Vedas were forced to similar changes when they passed from places like Kazakhstan to northern India.

MEH, what can you do, politics is designed to inspire fear, why else was satan invented...

[dimreepr]