world without money

[joigus]

21 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

each one has to do a mission that benefits others, according to his ability and his passion, in return he recieves what he needs to live and to do his mission

The problem with this well-meaning idea is the law of supply and demand.

[Othmane Dahi]

32 minutes ago, sangui said:

I don't see how this is incompatible with money (I see why it's impossible with our system, but we could build an alternative monetary system).

Money is the simplest way to trade (and trade is important, because it's the simplest way to connect people). So maybe just build some new rules ?

-Every body will receive a minimum salary (without looking for his employement, sex, age ...).

-Nobody can earn more than 10 times this salary (10  is just an exemple).

-An organisation can control some prices (for the most important supplies)  to avoid dangerous inflation.

 

It may be an alternative between our world and a world without money (remember : money is a tool, a tool can't be evil, it just may  be evily used).

I see what you want to do but I think you will need so much more rules 

 

19 minutes ago, joigus said:

The problem with this well-meaning idea is the law of supply and demand.

Can you explain more

 

19 minutes ago, joigus said:

The problem with this well-meaning idea is the law of supply and demand.

an exampe woud suffice

 

[sangui]

9 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

I see what you want to do but I think you will need so much more rules 

I'm completely agree with you but it's not easy to do.

To construct those rules more efficiently we would need to do it on an exemple (a country or at least a culture).

[joigus]

14 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

Can you explain more

an exampe woud suffice

 

Suppose you produce yoyos. You make perfect yoyos, but the world no longer is interested, no matter what your passion and ability at making yoyos may be. Who's going to subsidize your yoyo-making? And what for?

[MigL]

Too bad Star Trek:TNG never did explain their system ...

"The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn’t exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity"

- Captain Jean-Luc Picard
  Star Trek: First Contact

[Phi for All]

If we could remove the extremes at either end, our current system could lead to less of a focus on acquiring more wealth than is necessary. If we want to curb extreme greed and poverty, regulation is our best friend. I know this because of how much the obscenely wealthy hate it, and how much the devastatingly poor need it.

[sangui]

48 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

If we could remove the extremes at either end, our current system could lead to less of a focus on acquiring more wealth than is necessary. If we want to curb extreme greed and poverty, regulation is our best friend. I know this because of how much the obscenely wealthy hate it, and how much the devastatingly poor need it.

The question is how to regulate it ?

 

[iNow]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Too bad Star Trek:TNG never did explain their system ...

There was a pretty good book called Trekonomics that walked through this. The part that stood out to me is how the ferenghi still used gold latimum despite the lack of money elsewhere 

Edited July 4, 2020 by iNow

[Othmane Dahi]

4 hours ago, joigus said:

Suppose you produce yoyos. You make perfect yoyos, but the world no longer is interested, no matter what your passion and ability at making yoyos may be. Who's going to subsidize your yoyo-making? And what for?

Okay I understand. I agree this is a big problem.

3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

If we could remove the extremes at either end, our current system could lead to less of a focus on acquiring more wealth than is necessary. If we want to curb extreme greed and poverty, regulation is our best friend. I know this because of how much the obscenely wealthy hate it, and how much the devastatingly poor need it.

I agree with @sangui the problem is how can we achieve that. This world is a kind of solution but it has his own problems such as @joigus's

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, sangui said:

The question is how to regulate it ?

For starters, I think we should agree on what money shouldn't be able to buy, and that may help us decide to live without it. Academic placement, political favor, and professional privilege (access to your doctor's private line, etc) are some of the areas where money does nothing but corrupt the system.

After that, we have science to help us determine how to best use our resources. And we need to have a talk about what a basic life in a modern society should look like. We certainly shouldn't be paying all these taxes and then letting excessively wealthy people decide what to do with the money that's supposed to help all of us.

[Markus Hanke]

I don’t know anything about global macroeconomics from an academic point of view, but this discussion got me wondering what the underlying symmetries of this closed system actually are, mathematically speaking.

My immediate impulse here would be to describe the global flow of funds/money (not the same things, right?) similar to how we do fluid dynamics, using an appropriate differentiable manifold. Has anything like this ever been done? I’d be curious to see the resulting maths - what field equations govern the evolution of the system, what the local and global symmetries are, etc. I would also expect the dynamics of this system to be fully determinate, but having a rapidly increasing uncertainty factor when it comes to predictability, i.e. a chaotic system.

Not trying to make any particular point at all here, this is just a matter of curiosity on my part.

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

My immediate impulse here would be to describe the global flow of funds/money (not the same things, right?) similar to how we do fluid dynamics, using an appropriate differentiable manifold. Has anything like this ever been done?

There are lots of studies and data from global banks and the federal reserve that slice and dice this data in various ways, but here’s a handy visual from just last month that gives a 20,000 foot view of the scale of it all:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization-2020/

This atlas of activity is pretty badass, too: https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu

[John Cuthber]

On 7/3/2020 at 8:30 PM, HallsofIvy said:

Most people would not want to work if they did not have to have money!

Next time you see someone who is on the dole, ask them if they want a job.

[HallsofIvy]

5 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Next time you see someone who is on the dole, ask them if they want a job.

How does that contradict what I said?  A person who is on the dole still needs money- staying alive is not living in a satisfying way!

[John Cuthber]

44 minutes ago, HallsofIvy said:

How does that contradict what I said?  A person who is on the dole still needs money- staying alive is not living in a satisfying way!

They have enough money to stay alive. But if you actually ask them (which is what I actually said) they say they want a job.

It's the self respect that does it.

You pretty much said it yourself:

47 minutes ago, HallsofIvy said:

staying alive is not living in a satisfying way!

Most people want the satisfaction of actually achieving things.

[Markus Hanke]

12 hours ago, iNow said:

There are lots of studies and data from global banks and the federal reserve that slice and dice this data in various ways, but here’s a handy visual from just last month that gives a 20,000 foot view of the scale of it all:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization-2020/

This atlas of activity is pretty badass, too: https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu

Interesting, thanks! 
I just wonder if there is a mathematic model that describes the evolution and dynamics of the system? Again, just as a matter of curiosity.

6 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Most people want the satisfaction of actually achieving things.

Just as a quick note - my own personal sense of achievement comes from pursuits that have no monetary value, and my most valuable asset (basic necessities of survival aside for now) is free time that enables me to engage in those pursuits. It is a mistake to assume that a sense of achievement can only result from having paid work; many of the greatest achievements of humankind cannot be measured in monetary terms.

[Othmane Dahi]

On 7/5/2020 at 4:50 PM, John Cuthber said:

Next time you see someone who is on the dole, ask them if they want a job.

even if they don't, they will have to work to get their food and their needs

On 7/5/2020 at 10:06 PM, HallsofIvy said:

How does that contradict what I said?  A person who is on the dole still needs money- staying alive is not living in a satisfying way!

take a look on my reply on his 

 

 

Every one will have a satisfying life but without extravagance

Edited July 7, 2020 by Othmane Dahi

[Area54]

57 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

Every one will have a satisfying life but without extravagance

So you reject the idea that some people can only be satisfied by extravagance? What is your evidence for that?

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, Area54 said:

So you reject the idea that some people can only be satisfied by extravagance? What is your evidence for that?

The Diderot effect.

Quote

The effect was first described in Diderot's essay "Regrets on Parting with My Old Dressing Gown". Here he tells how the gift of a beautiful scarlet dressing gown leads to unexpected results, eventually plunging him into debt. Initially pleased with the gift, Diderot came to rue his new garment.

 

[Othmane Dahi]

16 hours ago, Area54 said:

So you reject the idea that some people can only be satisfied by extravagance? What is your evidence for that?

what type of extravagance are you talking about ?

For example if you are talking about someone who needs more food than others he will take it based on his weight etc 

However if you are talking about someone who wants for example a personal boat to travel seas well that is still not extravagance if he will be doing a mission for example giving reports etc 

In addition people will have the right to have a boat to travel a certain amount of time per year and this time will be set according to how much people want to do it per year so everyone that wants it will have the right to do it

[dimreepr]

25 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

In addition people will have the right to have a boat to travel a certain amount of time per year and this time will be set according to how much people want to do it per year so everyone that wants it will have the right to do it

How do you accomplish that without money? 

A point's system is no different, other than "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than other's"...

With money, however, there is a chance of equitable distribution (with need as a base line.) and an opportunity to want and have more. 

And all we need to do to achieve that, is to find a way to alleviate the fear of those that have more (don't worry they aren't raiding your larder) and persuade them that keeping people alive is in their interest.

Mind you, in a global famine all bets are off...

Edited July 8, 2020 by dimreepr

[Area54]

54 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

what type of extravagance are you talking about ?

For example if you are talking about someone who needs more food than others he will take it based on his weight etc 

That is not extravagance. Rountinely lunching on two $666 Douche Burgers at 666 Burger in New York, or stir frying your vegtables in twenty year old malt is extravagant.

55 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

However if you are talking about someone who wants for example a personal boat to travel seas well that is still not extravagance if he will be doing a mission for example giving reports etc 

That is not extravagant. Spending $35,000,000 on a luxury yacht you only use two months of the year is extravagant.

 

55 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

In addition people will have the right to have a boat to travel a certain amount of time per year and this time will be set according to how much people want to do it per year so everyone that wants it will have the right to do it

But, apparently, they won't have the right to  daily ration of $666 burgers, or a $35,000,000 luxury yacht. (And some people might consider such a yacht under-specified and only fit for their younger children. )

[Othmane Dahi]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

How do you accomplish that without money? 

accomplish what exactly, please

1 hour ago, Area54 said:

But, apparently, they won't have the right to  daily ration of $666 burgers, or a $35,000,000 luxury yacht. (And some people might consider such a yacht under-specified and only fit for their younger children. )

Yes I agree this is one of the problems of this world 

[dimreepr]

12 minutes ago, Othmane Dahi said:

accomplish what exactly, please

That's a difficult question...

While we have enough to eat, accomplishments are???

[Area54]

1 hour ago, Othmane Dahi said:

Yes I agree this is one of the problems of this world 

And it is precisely that problem that invalidates your proposal. For your concept to be taken seriously you must propose a practical, sustainable, effective solution. Otherwise you do not have a solution, merely a wish list. Most of us might well wish for what you propose, but without a plausible mechanism to implement you are just daydreaming.