The Venus Project

[zapatos]

22 minutes ago, IDoNotCare said:

Looks like someone needs some kool-aid.

Thannks for chiming in but the constant berating, ban threats carried out by non-admins, and character assassinations are just derailing this thread about THE VENUS PROJECT and are very opinionated and off-topic. 

As  opposed to calling people "temperamental", "sheeple" and "bootlicker"? But I do agree that your constant berating of us is rather childish.

[IDoNotCare]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

As  opposed to calling people "temperamental", "sheeple" and "bootlicker"? But I do agree that your constant berating of us is rather childish.

I apologise, let's agree to stay on topic or not continue a back and forth?

[ALine]

Ok, first I do not nor will I ever condone the use of insults nor the condemning of someone solely off of the basis of an idea, nor the usage of slander, whether it be direct or indirect, toward another person. That is in no way to progress a discussion. Second one must follow the rule defined by this community in order to fully experience it. That is agreed on when you enter into it, so if they say you cannot post a million word essay then that's it period.

Going back to your discussion on Resource Based Economies I honestly enjoy the concept, in fact back in college I came across it and found that it was interesting to say the least. It even influenced my own dreams and aspiration due to it ability to solve a few problems. That being said I also believe that it has its draw backs. One being that how would one rate or determine if certain resources are required vs. others? At what point do you define a resource as being a "resource." I define it as being a "useful thing to build other things." And if that is the case then at what point does a resource become "valuable." If it is valued at a certain point then that is a demand for it, in order to satisfy that demand there must be a supply. This is the basis of economics. In order to satisfy that demand you must have some workforce. This is where automation could come in sure, in fact a large amount of companies are actually switching towards automated methods in order to prevent the usage of persons who do work at a much slower rate. So in a sense I believe that capitalism is kind of headed into that direction already.

However let me pose a hypothetical. Lets say that you have a piece of metal which is considered a resource for a specific process to make something else. Lets say you have only one of that said resource and you need 20, how would you satisfy everyone's demand for it?

I have my own answer in mind, however I would like to see how you would answer it @IDoNotCare

Edited July 13, 2020 by ALine
deleted "directed"

[IDoNotCare]

10 minutes ago, ALine said:

Ok, first I do not nor will I ever condone the use of insults nor the condemning of someone solely off of the basis of an idea, nor the usage of slander, whether it be direct or indirect, directed toward another person. That is in no way to progress a discussion. Second one must follow the rule defined by this community in order to fully experience it. That is agreed on when you enter into it, so if they say you cannot post a million word essay then that's it period.

Going back to your discussion on Resource Based Economies I honestly enjoy the concept, in fact back in college I came across it and found that it was interesting to say the least. It even influenced my own dreams and aspiration due to it ability to solve a few problems. That being said I also believe that it has its draw backs. One being that how would one rate or determine if certain resources are required vs. others? At what point do you define a resource as being a "resource." I define it as being a "useful thing to build other things." And if that is the case then at what point does a resource become "valuable." If it is valued at a certain point then that is a demand for it, in order to satisfy that demand there must be a supply. This is the basis of economics. In order to satisfy that demand you must have some workforce. This is where automation could come in sure, in fact a large amount of companies are actually switching towards automated methods in order to prevent the usage of persons who do work at a much slower rate. So in a sense I believe that capitalism is kind of headed into that direction already.

However let me pose a hypothetical. Lets say that you have a piece of metal which is considered a resource for a specific process to make something else. Lets say you have only one of that said resource and you need 20, how would you satisfy everyone's demand for it?

I have my own answer in mind, however I would like to see how you would answer it @IDoNotCare

One being that how would one rate or determine if certain resources are required vs. others?

Technocratic autocrats should answer this, managers working in a specific field who have to deal with construction. An RBE principle is favoring the technocrats over politicians or even CEOs. In the case of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig catastrophy the owner of the rig had the last day, not his panel of experts, he drew up a scientific reason why the issue might not be what the experts were thinking, he got the last say and boom.

At what point do you define a resource as being a "resource." I define it as being a "useful thing to build other things." And if that is the case then at what point does a resource become "valuable." If it is valued at a certain point then that is a demand for it, in order to satisfy that demand there must be a supply. This is the basis of economics.

I don't think economics or politics are the real science. The real science is in the resources available and the engineers who design ways to get it out of the ground and all the steps inbetween. We often fall short of reality counting cash. I say cut out the middle man. The most valuable resource should be the human mind, and self-autonomous workers can free that time for the mind to develop in an educational, especially considering the education should be a right. Instead of right to work it's right to educate. I said remote operators would be a job, now let's add teachers. But these jobs shouldn't pay because there's nothing to spend it on, the operators can supply themselves and others with a personal club if they direct their machines to build it. It's like using deep R&B for self-gratifying technological employees. Gollum Genies they are refered to.

However let me pose a hypothetical. Lets say that you have a piece of metal which is considered a resource for a specific process to make something else. Lets say you have only one of that said resource and you need 20, how would you satisfy everyone's demand for it?

This implies scarcity, currently resources and manufacturing are hitting bell curve with industry, it's too much and most of it is going to waste. 

In the case of unlimited population growth however, if we indeed start covering the Earth's service in machinery molecular replication will become a necessity but in my opening post I linked a molecular nanogold video in which is the start of what's called a von neumann probe. Now these things can go miles into the Earth's crust, breaking apart any matter and turning it into materials needed to build more machines like themselves or equipment used for other purposes.

[swansont]

9 hours ago, IDoNotCare said:

Self-autonomy is possible, that’s an engineering question and it’s covered heavily in Jacque Fresco’s work.

You need to explain it here, so it can be discussed.

 

9 hours ago, IDoNotCare said:

 2.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__EoOvVkEMo Do you mean this self-driving car?

I mean them in general (I'm not going to watch the video)

They have safety problems and other shortcomings. 

 

9 hours ago, IDoNotCare said:

We could have had flying cars quite some time ago, this is one of the older and more seamless ones: http://randolphlalonde.blogspot.com/2012/09/wheres-my-flying-car-broadcast-4-one.html But there is better technology employed in Venus Project designs which are clearly laid out for those members who wish to do a little extra research and I will provide their maglev vactrain, subterranean, transcontinental, which connects not just a city but the world at large using 2% of the cost of the fuel planes use as a public transportation system.

Claims without support are not very convincing. Where does this 2% come from? What assumptions are involved? If it's just fuel cost, then how does anyone know this isn't a shell game? One could tout lower fuel costs and hide the fact that infrastructure and maintenance costs might be much higher. What matters is the total cost of the system.

 

 

9 hours ago, IDoNotCare said:

He also has self-driving cars but they work a little differently than those limited by disorganized roadways and overall inefficient traffic system.

Then you need to go through how one would rework the entire roadway/traffic system. The problem is you rarely get to build these from scratch. You have to modify existing systems.

 

9 hours ago, IDoNotCare said:

 3.     That’s the point; we want more engineers and less public service and sales, we want to make it so no monotonous job is possible to get.

 

This is not "the only things doing any work the whole entire time was the automation" since you have people working. You need to more clearly explain what's going on here (don't rely on people watching a bunch of videos - it's not going to happen)

 

 

9 hours ago, IDoNotCare said:

“Also, if you want to propose communism” WHHHHAA—I didn’t say that.

You didn't use the word, but it's what you are proposing.

 

9 hours ago, IDoNotCare said:

I know it’s custom throw communism at ideas that you don’t like

Perhaps, but that's not the case here. What you are proposing is basic communism.

"a classless system in which the means of production are owned communally and private property is nonexistent or severely curtailed"

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/communism.asp

Also known as "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

 

"all goods and services are available" sounds like "to each according to his needs" and doing away with money to pay people, and instead having them do what they're best at sounds like "From each according to his ability"

[IDoNotCare]

12 hours ago, swansont said:

You need to explain it here, so it can be discussed.

 

I mean them in general (I'm not going to watch the video)

They have safety problems and other shortcomings. 

 

Claims without support are not very convincing. Where does this 2% come from? What assumptions are involved? If it's just fuel cost, then how does anyone know this isn't a shell game? One could tout lower fuel costs and hide the fact that infrastructure and maintenance costs might be much higher. What matters is the total cost of the system.

 

 

Then you need to go through how one would rework the entire roadway/traffic system. The problem is you rarely get to build these from scratch. You have to modify existing systems.

 

 

This is not "the only things doing any work the whole entire time was the automation" since you have people working. You need to more clearly explain what's going on here (don't rely on people watching a bunch of videos - it's not going to happen)

 

 

You didn't use the word, but it's what you are proposing.

 

Perhaps, but that's not the case here. What you are proposing is basic communism.

"a classless system in which the means of production are owned communally and private property is nonexistent or severely curtailed"

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/communism.asp

Also known as "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

 

"all goods and services are available" sounds like "to each according to his needs" and doing away with money to pay people, and instead having them do what they're best at sounds like "From each according to his ability"

Yes the first projects will be built from scratch and probably won't include the transcontinental vactube train. But it's not a monetary concern, this isn't about money it's anti-money, the projects will prove it works and, unfortunately, since we're still subjugated by Arabian oil so we can lace Dubai in gold and rule by the Robber Barrons it will have an initial cost but I'm not sure how much their first projects will cost but it seems they are going to do an experimental city so that can only add precedence to it's pragmatism. Then they are going to build a park and make TVP more well known to the public.

Furthermore these cities are designed to be retrofitted with newer infrastructure, unlike our modern cities. So that when the molecular replication of materials like nano-gold becomes more mainstream we can integrate self-replicating automation into something like The Venus Project.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by IDoNotCare

[zapatos]

10 minutes ago, IDoNotCare said:

Furthermore these cities are designed to be retrofitted with newer infrastructure, unlike our modern cities.

Are these cities going to be built on what is currently empty ground?

[IDoNotCare]

7 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Are these cities going to be built on what is currently empty ground?

Well I can't see it any other way. Even if they end up demolishing the old cities in the distant future, but I don't see the need for the materials in the old buildings to be used considering we have so much more being made from manufacturing facilities and factories than is being put back into industrial endeavors (again because of the nature of the capitalist beast) at least not for a while. A lot of these cities are designed to float on the oceanic surface, even though countries have plenty of open land to build on.

There's talk of Texas and California wanting to secede into independent states, perhaps they would invest in the initial prices of these new infrastructures in the distant future.

[zapatos]

How do you move from "idea" stage to implementation? Is the Venus Project 'government neutral'? Meaning, is it a challenge to any existing government?

Does the Venus Project apply to those who do not live in the cities? If so, how are they included?

[IDoNotCare]

The test city is supposed to be built in AZ

Edited July 13, 2020 by IDoNotCare

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, IDoNotCare said:

Well I can't see it any other way. Even if they end up demolishing the old cities in the distant future, but I don't see the need for the materials in the old buildings to be used considering we have so much more being made from manufacturing facilities and factories than is being put back into industrial endeavors (again because of the nature of the capitalist beast) at least not for a while. A lot of these cities are designed to float on the oceanic surface, even though countries have plenty of open land to build on.

There's talk of Texas and California wanting to secede into independent states, perhaps they would invest in the initial prices of these new infrastructures in the distant future.

A primary reason most cities exist where they do is because of built-in advantages, such as resources, transportation, etc. If those places are already taken how do you find new locations that make sense for new cities?

[IDoNotCare]

Just now, zapatos said:

How do you move from "idea" stage to implementation? Is the Venus Project 'government neutral'? Meaning, is it a challenge to any existing government?

Does the Venus Project apply to those who do not live in the cities? If so, how are they included?

Their plan is to build a test city, and a tribunal park to attract tourists. I would definitely say they are government neutral, not being concerned with the nationality of it's denizens. At least as far as I know. Although they are based in the United States so I'm not sure how citizenship will factor in, probably need to be American but define government neutral are we talking nationality or the federal arena? They might operate under Technocratic autocracy.

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, IDoNotCare said:

The test city is supposed to be built in Venus, AZ

I didn't find anything on the goals of the test city. Do you have the goals that you can share? One of the issues I see is rolling this out in a world that already has infrastructure, government, laws, etc. in place.

[IDoNotCare]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

A primary reason most cities exist where they do is because of built-in advantages, such as resources, transportation, etc. If those places are already taken how do you find new locations that make sense for new cities?

The benefits of an oceanic city, for example, are the ability to utilize wave currents in water turbines.

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

I didn't find anything on the goals of the test city. Do you have the goals that you can share? One of the issues I see is rolling this out in a world that already has infrastructure, government, laws, etc. in place.

They are in my opening post, the very first link.

https://www.thevenusproject.com/tvphistoryevent/present-indicative/

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, IDoNotCare said:

define government neutral are we talking nationality or the federal arena?

What I'm talking about is for example the Venus Project goal of equality for all. Not all governments believe in equality and in fact have laws to enforce inequality. How do you implement in a country whose government is in opposition to your goals? Will you have to pay taxes to existing governments? How do you avoid existing regulations (fire codes, constructions codes, etc.) if they are in opposition to the goals of the Venus Project?

[IDoNotCare]

This link is more specific regarding the Arizona test city, it's in a desert.

Just now, zapatos said:

What I'm talking about is for example the Venus Project goal of equality for all. Not all governments believe in equality and in fact have laws to enforce inequality. How do you implement in a country whose government is in opposition to your goals? Will you have to pay taxes to existing governments? How do you avoid existing regulations (fire codes, constructions codes, etc.) if they are in opposition to the goals of the Venus Project?

A government is only as strong as it's people. If it's the will of the people, it will be built. Right now the first city to be built is more of a scientific experiment to test and or demonstrate he feasibility of it all.

But it still costs money to build something in this modern age, even for something that's anti-money. We have to face the bitter truth in the matter of mass unawareness on the subject of free society.

[zapatos]

16 minutes ago, IDoNotCare said:

They are in my opening post, the very first link.

https://www.thevenusproject.com/tvphistoryevent/present-indicative/

Maybe I'm just missing it but I was hoping for something along the lines of:

Goals of test city with respect to:

1. Working with existing governments

2. Infrastructure

3. Monetary policy

4. Education

5. Birth Control

6. Developing Venus Project style government

7. etc.

Obviously a test city cannot test everything at once but there must be specific goals at this phase.

If brought to fruition, the Venus Project seems to be the biggest effort the world has ever seen. I'm curious how an idea for a better world could be implemented in a world that may not want it. Ultimately people are more or less selfish and the people controlling resources now may object to sharing them widely.

Edited July 14, 2020 by zapatos

[IDoNotCare]

11 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Maybe I'm just missing it but I was hoping for something along the lines of:

Goals of test city with respect to:

1. Working with existing governments

2. Infrastructure

3. Monetary policy

4. Education

5. Birth Control

6. Developing Venus Project style government

7. etc.

Obviously a test city cannot test everything at once but there must be specific goals at this phase.

If brought to fruition, the Venus Project seems to be the biggest effort the world has ever seen. I'm curious how an idea for a better world could be implemented in a world that may not want it. Ultimately people are more or less selfish and the people controlling resources now may object to sharing them widely.

Yeah wasn't the first link that was just corroborating what I said about it being in the Arizona desert. 

Excerpt from the first link:

Phase Three

To test its designs and proposals, The Venus Project is working toward putting its ideals into practice with the construction of an experimental research city. Blueprints for most of the initial technologies and buildings have begun. Fund-raising efforts are currently underway to help support the construction of this first experimental city. This new experimental research city would be devoted to working toward the aims and goals of The Venus Project which are:

1. Recognizing the world’s resources as the common heritage of all Earth’s people.

2. Transcending the artificial boundaries that separate people.

3. Evolving from a money-based, nationalistic economies to a resource-based world economy.

4. Assisting in stabilizing the world’s population through education and voluntary birth control in order to conform to the carrying capacity of Earth’s resources.

5. Reclaiming and restoring the natural environment to the best of our ability.

6. Redesigning our cities, transportation systems, agricultural industries, and industrial plants so that they are energy efficient, clean, and able to conveniently serve the needs of all people.

7. Sharing and applying new technologies for the benefit of all nations.

8. Developing and using clean and renewable energy sources.

9. Manufacturing the highest quality products for the benefit of the world’s people.

10. Requiring environmental impact studies prior to construction of any mega projects.

11. Encouraging the widest range of creativity and incentive toward constructive endeavor.

12. Outgrowing nationalism, bigotry, and prejudice through education.

13. Outgrowing any type of elitism, technical or otherwise.

14. Arriving at methodologies through careful research, rather than from mere opinions.

15. Enhancing communication in schools so that our language corresponds to the actual physical nature of the world.

16. Providing not only the necessities of life, but also offering challenges that stimulate the mind while emphasizing individuality over uniformity.

17. Finally, preparing people intellectually and emotionally for the changes and challenges that lie ahead.

First link: https://www.thevenusproject.com/faq/what-is-the-plan/

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, IDoNotCare said:

Yeah wasn't the first link that was just corroborating what I said about it being in the Arizona desert. 

Excerpt from the first link:

Phase Three

To test its designs and proposals, The Venus Project is working toward putting its ideals into practice with the construction of an experimental research city. Blueprints for most of the initial technologies and buildings have begun. Fund-raising efforts are currently underway to help support the construction of this first experimental city. This new experimental research city would be devoted to working toward the aims and goals of The Venus Project which are:

1. Recognizing the world’s resources as the common heritage of all Earth’s people.

2. Transcending the artificial boundaries that separate people.

3. Evolving from a money-based, nationalistic economies to a resource-based world economy.

4. Assisting in stabilizing the world’s population through education and voluntary birth control in order to conform to the carrying capacity of Earth’s resources.

5. Reclaiming and restoring the natural environment to the best of our ability.

6. Redesigning our cities, transportation systems, agricultural industries, and industrial plants so that they are energy efficient, clean, and able to conveniently serve the needs of all people.

7. Sharing and applying new technologies for the benefit of all nations.

8. Developing and using clean and renewable energy sources.

9. Manufacturing the highest quality products for the benefit of the world’s people.

10. Requiring environmental impact studies prior to construction of any mega projects.

11. Encouraging the widest range of creativity and incentive toward constructive endeavor.

12. Outgrowing nationalism, bigotry, and prejudice through education.

13. Outgrowing any type of elitism, technical or otherwise.

14. Arriving at methodologies through careful research, rather than from mere opinions.

15. Enhancing communication in schools so that our language corresponds to the actual physical nature of the world.

16. Providing not only the necessities of life, but also offering challenges that stimulate the mind while emphasizing individuality over uniformity.

17. Finally, preparing people intellectually and emotionally for the changes and challenges that lie ahead.

For example, 

13. Outgrowing any type of elitism, technical or otherwise.

How does one test that? What are the success criteria? 

These sound like grand ideas, not specific goals of a test project. Again, I'm just wondering if more specific goals are in place at this time or if it has not yet progressed to that stage.

[IDoNotCare]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

For example, 

13. Outgrowing any type of elitism, technical or otherwise.

How does one test that? What are the success criteria? 

These sound like grand ideas, not specific goals of a test project. Again, I'm just wondering if more specific goals are in place at this time or if it has not yet progressed to that stage.

If I had it my way we would do it Bane Style taking over Gotham in Dark Knight Rises.

 

But I'm sure they just mean to do it on a social level within the confines of their test group which I would like to be apart of.

Edited July 14, 2020 by IDoNotCare