Interfering in other people's politics.

[Prometheus]

4 hours ago, studiot said:

I didn't say that peace has nothing to do with the EU, I said I (and many others) consider it the principal reason.

Yes a much smaller EU maintained a peace, now there are borders and restrictions between various countries of the enlarged organisation and internal pressures are building up.

Again I did not suggest any war would happen tomorrow or that it would be an external one.

You have a point about Iraq, but it could also be looked at another way: we were silly enough to allow ourselves to be dragged into that one. Should the EU as a whole go to war, we could not opt out.

You are worried perhaps by countries like Hungary? Being in the EU makes military intervention less likely surely? It means economic and political measures can be much more effective, due to integration. 

Also, why do you think the UK would be dragged into a war. If we objected to a military intervention (even though historically it seems EU countries are the more reluctant) , it's likely that other EU nations would also object, and we could pursue other avenues. I know the UK were quite passive in the EU, always complaining rather than offering solutions, but we could easily have had as much influence as Germany. 

Presumably you would also like to leave NATO for the same reasons? And that Scotland, Wales, NI should leave the UK for the same reason (England must have dragged them into many wars down the ages).

[studiot]

56 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

You are worried perhaps by countries like Hungary? Being in the EU makes military intervention less likely surely? It means economic and political measures can be much more effective, due to integration. 

Also, why do you think the UK would be dragged into a war. If we objected to a military intervention (even though historically it seems EU countries are the more reluctant) , it's likely that other EU nations would also object, and we could pursue other avenues. I know the UK were quite passive in the EU, always complaining rather than offering solutions, but we could easily have had as much influence as Germany. 

Presumably you would also like to leave NATO for the same reasons? And that Scotland, Wales, NI should leave the UK for the same reason (England must have dragged them into many wars down the ages).

I don't recall the western nations either individually or under some collective intervening in Hungary or the Prague Spring, or the suppression of Solidarity in Poland.

Would the say the Netherlands go to the aid of Greece if they had a conflict with Turkey?

If we went to the aid of Australia, New Zealand, or Canada if they were attacked by an Asian power, would any European nation help us ?

How many wars have the 'great' United Nations actually stopped or prevented in the first place?

[Area54]

On 9/25/2020 at 8:44 PM, studiot said:

I was in Hungary during the Uprising of '56.
NATO was not actually at war in the same way as the Soviets then.

My belated sympathy.

Global objections and revulsion to the aggressive Soviet suppression of the Uprising were partially undermined by the poorly timed invasion of Egypt by France and the UK.  (I omit Israel for hopefully obvious reasons,)

7 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

OK, I apologise for sloppy wording

Wholly accepted. Thank you.

[MigL]

4 hours ago, studiot said:

Would the say the Netherlands go to the aid of Greece if they had a conflict with Turkey?

If we went to the aid of Australia, New Zealand, or Canada if they were attacked by an Asian power, would any European nation help us ?

I suggest some research, even Wiki, of the Greece-Turkey tensions and conflicts, especially the Cyprus situation.
It has briefly turned 'hot' a few times, but it is exactly because both are members of NATO ( Turkey is NOT EU ) that pressure could be brought to bear and hostilities stopped ( but tensions remain ).
Similarly if Canada were attacked, the UK is duty bound ( NATO treaty ) to come to our aid, along with the US, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the rest of the 30 odd member states, including Poland, Hungry, Greece, Turkey and all of the former Yugoslav states.
And no, Hungary was not part of NATO in 56, but of the Warsaw Pact.
Australia and New Zealand, on the other hand, belong to SEATO, to which the US and UK were also signatories, but it hasn't been as successful' as NATO; it doesn't have its own headquarters/command and member states like French Indochina and Pakistan have dissolved or left.

I would stress that NATO ( and to a much lesser extent SEATO ) is the military alliance since shortly after WW2, while the EU grew out of economic ( strictly ) European alliances that were formed during the 50s, and which C DeGaulle tried desperately to keep the UK out of ( until the 70s IIR ). It is NATO that has contributed to the peace; an attack on any member state is an attack on all of them.
You don't think it was the EU that stopped Russian expansion of the Warsaw Pact ( more accurately Warsaw Occupied Possessions ) westward, do you ?

The UK, as an independent state, will continue its downward spiral to irrelevance ( along with the other former European Great Powers ) in the face of competition from other resource rich states, like Russia, China, India, Brazil, and the North America block.
A United Europe, though, has clout, power, and can't be pushed around by anyone.
The UK could have remained a part of SOMETHING, instead you guys voted to become irrelevant, and go begging to others for trade deals.

I can't wait until Prometheus has an opportunity to vote on re-joining the EU; hopefully the rest of you come to your senses in sooner than 20 years.

Edited September 27, 2020 by MigL

[John Cuthber]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

instead you guys voted to become irrelevant,

Technically, most people didn't but, Like the system that elected Trump, you don't need to win to win.

[studiot]

11 hours ago, MigL said:

You don't think it was the EU that stopped Russian expansion of the Warsaw Pact ( more accurately Warsaw Occupied Possessions ) westward, do you ?

No, in fact I suggested exactly the opposite.

But +1 for the rest of your post.

11 hours ago, MigL said:

The UK, as an independent state, will continue its downward spiral to irrelevance

That is not a given and need not necessarily happen.

As has already been pointed out, the Swiss model has many points of attraction.

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, studiot said:

That is not a given and need not necessarily happen.

What could stop it?

 

 

1 hour ago, studiot said:

As has already been pointed out, the Swiss model has many points of attraction.

Are you aware of what the Swiss are currently doing?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54316316

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, studiot said:

As has already been pointed out, the Swiss model has many points of attraction.

I'm pretty sure I meant that as a parody, of the hopeless situation we find ourselves in.

[Endy0816]

5 hours ago, studiot said:

As has already been pointed out, the Swiss model has many points of attraction.

Even if British voters would accept paying into the EU budget, various rules and FoM, it looks like multiple EFTA countries would still veto the UK joining.

 

Kibd of curious, has there been any local discussion of plans regarding Gibraltar and Falklands?

Edited September 28, 2020 by Endy0816

[studiot]

I didn't know the Falklands were either in the EU or near enough anybody els to have local discussions.

Why would they ?

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I'm pretty sure I meant that as a parody, of the hopeless situation we find ourselves in.

Are you saying the Swiss model is not attractive?

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, studiot said:

Are you saying the Swiss model is not attractive?

Are you saying it is?

[Endy0816]

33 minutes ago, studiot said:

I didn't know the Falklands were either in the EU or near enough anybody els to have local discussions.

Why would they ?

Well Falklands were in EU via the UK and had been profiting considerably as a result.

Mercosur has been applying  political and economic pressure on them to try and secure the territory for Argentina.

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, studiot said:

Are you saying the Swiss model is not attractive?

I don't understand the question. 

Are you saying that being dictated to is preferable to being the dictator? 

Edited September 29, 2020 by dimreepr

[studiot]

30 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I don't understand the question. 

Are you saying that being dictated to is preferable to being the dictator? 

You brought up 'the swiss'

Decades back, successive Uk governments of both colours began the process of dismantlying UK heavy industry.
The promise was that we should look at the swiss and stop making things of large mass but (relatively) low value.
Instead we should convert to manufacture of high skill, high value items as the swiss do with watches.

Sadly almost all that has happened is the dismantling of old staple industries, the dismantling/castration of all the high tech institutions that served industry and society and the breakup of those large state organisations that were big enough to play a part on the international stage.

This had nothing to do with the EU or later Brexit, although I am sure they welcomed all this self harm by a competitor with open arms.

Edited September 29, 2020 by studiot

[dimreepr]

26 minutes ago, studiot said:

Decades back, successive Uk governments of both colours began the process of dismantlying UK heavy industry.
The promise was that we should look at the swiss and stop making things of large mass but (relatively) low value.
Instead we should convert to manufacture of high skill, high value items as the swiss do with watches.

They didn't dismantle anything, they were part of the process; the truism applicable here is, every empire must fail; it's a matter of entropy...

[studiot]

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

They didn't dismantle anything, they were part of the process; the truism applicable here is, every empire must fail; it's a matter of entropy...

So the CEGB still exists?

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, studiot said:

So the CEGB still exists?

I don't understand the question!!!

In the context of this thread.

[studiot]

30 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I don't understand the question!!!

In the context of this thread.

You said, "they didn't dismantly anything"

so I asked if you though the CEGB (as an example of one of the organisations I listed) still existed.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, studiot said:

You said, "they didn't dismantly anything"

so I asked if you though the CEGB (as an example of one of the organisations I listed) still existed.

I really don't care...

[studiot]

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I really don't care...

Well perhaps you should if you really want to stay in bed with the French. Their version still does exist.

[MigL]

So the Central Electricity Generating Board was privatized ( had to look it up ), that has happened in many places, not just the UK.

But as to hi-tech industries that are unmatched in the rest of the world, Rolls Royce is still on the leading edge of jet engine technology; some would say even with the American GE and P&W and so far ahead of everyone else that they can easily sell technology to other states ( like Turkey ).
Similarly British Aerospace is the third largest Defense contractor in the world, behind LM and Boeing.

You might be spiralling to irrelevance, but it's a very slow spiral.
Don't sell yourselves short.

[CharonY]

One thing that Brexiteers really wanted was limiting freedom of movement. Ironically, the Switzerland is part of Schengen, which makes travel easier than the current agreement with the UK. I.e. folks with permanent residency in any EU country is able to travel freely through the EU including Switzerland, but excluding UK (before Brexit). Also the agreements has put some significant disadvantages on Switzerland. As Dim implied, at least the UK had a say in EU rules, whereas Switzerland did not.

[John Cuthber]

On 9/28/2020 at 5:55 PM, Endy0816 said:

Well Falklands were in EU via the UK and had been profiting considerably as a result.

Mercosur has been applying  political and economic pressure on them to try and secure the territory for Argentina.

It is entirely possible that , as a result of "taking back control", we will lose the Falklands.

 

17 hours ago, CharonY said:

at least the UK had a say in EU rules,

This was a good thing, but we threw it away in order to change the colour of our passports.

[dimreepr]

55 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

This was a good thing, but we threw it away in order to change the colour of our passports.

The irony is, France will just give up checking them, out.

Edited September 30, 2020 by dimreepr

[MSC]

I'm gonna air some beef here. I took issue with Obama over at least one thing. 

Obama and Scottish Independence

Obama commanded a fair amount of respect in Scotland. I can't help but feel a little sore as to this interference, as it was a really close vote. It would be interesting to hear what he may have to say about the idea now, seeing as he was saying this during a time when The UK had not yet voted to leave the EU and he was critical of the idea of the UK leaving in the first place. I wonder if he'd speak differently about it now. 

I personally thought that staying tied to the British Parliament would be an odd thing for any American to advise, without sounding comically and historically hypocritical. 

That being said, I cannot even begin to quantify my preference for Obama over the Orange One.

Edited October 10, 2020 by MSC