Hypothetical sci-fi question about wormholes and elapsed time between the 2 points

[Pmfr]

Hi there.

I'm writing  a sci-fi story for a video game.

At some point in time an advanced civilization from the future, say 4010, creates a wormhole for a not so advanced civilization spacecraft in the past, say 2050, to travel through. The idea is for the not so advanced civilization spacecraft to meet the advanced one in its own time, 4010.

The question is (theoretically and sci-fi speaking): how many years would have passed for the advanced civilization in 4010 until the not so advanced civilization spacecraft arrived? 

Its possible that I'm missing some pseudo-scientific data so feel free to complement my reasoning.

I hope I made it clear.

Any help is appreciated .

Thank you.

 

PR

[MigL]

A 'wormhole' is a shortcut through space-time, and, if used as a 'time machine', cannot get you back to a time before the wormhole was created.
That being said, if the shortcut reduced a distance of 100 LY in regular space-time to one light month, it would still take you one month to traverse the wormhole. The length of the wormhole would be dependent on the topology of space-time as modified by the wormhole, and how it is 'constructed'.

edit
Purely theoretical, or for sci-fi, of course.
I don't think wormholes are actually possible.

Edited October 29, 2020 by MigL

[Pmfr]

Still browsing the net and found this article today (https://bgr.com/2020/09/01/wormholes-time-travel-theory/) - time passes faster inside the wormhole which means that the advanced civilization would have to wait years.

So all I need to do is to define the time passed inside the wormhole and the equivalent in years outside.

Sci-fi speaking, of course.

 

PR

[MigL]

That's not really what it says.
Time is relative so any superluminal ( spacelike ) travel will be faster compared to regular travel through space-time.
That is what a wormhole would allow you to do. And to come back through the wormhole to your original starting point with only your travel time having elapsed. The wormhole, in effect, 'links' two distant regions of space-time and makes them local.

The article goes on to explain how the standard model only allows for microscopic wormholes and the tidal effects of intense gravity, but those are not the biggest issues. Keep in mind that what a scientific model allows is not the same as what reality allows.
IOW, there is a good chance that wormholes are not realizable.

[Pmfr]

Your explanation is too complex form me. Can you give me a practical example using my scenario?

[MigL]

Say you are looking at a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years away. 
Now assume you have a wormhole connecting the Earth to this planet orbiting Alpha Centauri.
Space-time is 'local' at either opening of the wormhole, so if you step through, you emerge on that planet 4.3 years in your future.
Not as you were seeing it from Earth.

[Pmfr]

Let's elaborate on your example.

3 people: Mark, Peter and Paul

Mark remains on earth / Peter goes through the wormhole / Paul is on Alpha Centauri.

The year on earth is 2020 / The year on Alpha Centauri is 3030 (4.3 light years away)

 

Conclusion: Peter arrives at Alpha Centauri at 3034.3?  Earth is 2024.3?

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 10/30/2020 at 12:57 PM, MigL said:

Say you are looking at a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years away. 
Now assume you have a wormhole connecting the Earth to this planet orbiting Alpha Centauri.
Space-time is 'local' at either opening of the wormhole, so if you step through, you emerge on that planet 4.3 years in your future.
Not as you were seeing it from Earth.

So...no equivalent to FTL shortcut? 

[MigL]

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

So...no equivalent to FTL shortcut? 

Well ...yes.
Assuming such things as wormholes exist, while their associated problems do not …

You travelled 4.3 LY in a short period of time, so you obviously went superluminal.
But that planet ( in orbit around Alpha Centauri ) is not the same one you were looking at from Earth.
On Earth you were seeing the light that left it 4.3 years ago; so you essentially travelled 4.3 Years into the 'future.
Remember that the speed of light determines causality.

It might be better explained from the opposing PoV.
Say you are on a planet 100LY away.
You look at the Earth through a powerful telescope, and see people dying from a pandemic called the Spanish Flu.
You step through your wormhole, and get here instantly.
But it is now 100 years later on Earth, and people are dying from a pandemic called Covid 19.
You have effectively travelled 100 years into the future.

And stepping through the wormhole again to go home, you will be back on that 100 LY distant planet, and 'see' Earth again ( through the telescope ) in the year 1919; you have effectively travelled back into the 'past'. You will see WW2 unfold, the Korean and Vietnam war, and eventually, in 100 years, you'll see Covid 19 arrive.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Aren't they both, roughly speaking, in the same frame? They each see each other 4.3 years in the past, and are unable to see each other in the present.

So if they (impossibly as we generally accept physics, wormholes aside) make a leap spatially so that they maintain that present and now see it...how does that put them in the future?

[MigL]

The two ends of the wormhole would be local.

Looking through a telescope 'sees' 4.3 years in the past.
Looking ( and travelling ) through the wormhole 'sees' local ( don't want to say 'now' ) time.

[Pmfr]

For the sake of simplicity:

Not so advanced civilization = Joes

Advanced civilization = Apollos

 

The wormhole travel is an analepsis in the game introductory narrative (not playable). The present is as follows:

 

"The Joes arrive at the Apollo's system and find them in cryogenic sleep.

The Apollos knew that they had to wait a few years until the Joes arrived, mostly due to the lack of food supplies (given it's peculiar context, can't say more ), going into cryogenic sleep.

When the Joes finally arrive at the Apollo's planet, they awake them. At the awake, the Apollos become shocked when they realize that they spent dozens of years in cryo sleep (50 or so, for dramatic purpose).

One may assume that the Apollos, being such an advanced civilization, were able to predict the amount of time spent in cryo sleep or even do things in such a way that the Joes would arrive while they were still awake (avoiding the cryo sleep in the first place) - but the idea is just that: the Apollos shock of the time lost and its consequences."

 

So, I know that in sci fi almost anything is permitted, but I want the closest-rational possible explanation, an "Interstellar"-type-of-approach if you will (but inevitably always in the sci fi realm).

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Pmfr said:

So, I know that in sci fi almost anything is permitted, but I want the closest-rational possible explanation, an "Interstellar"-type-of-approach if you will (but inevitably always in the sci fi realm).

Imagine that...

[Ghideon]

2 hours ago, Pmfr said:

At the awake, the Apollos become shocked when they realize that they spent dozens of years in cryo sleep (50 or so, for dramatic purpose).

Someone able to create a time travel wormhole from 2050 to 4010 would know better. It looks like a plot hole to me.

2 hours ago, Pmfr said:

So, I know that in sci fi almost anything is permitted, but I want the closest-rational possible explanation, an "Interstellar"-type-of-approach if you will (but inevitably always in the sci fi realm).

A rational explanation is not really possible in mainstream science when time travel is introduced. Maybe this is possible in your game universe: While Apollos are in cryo the wormhole has a minor malfunction. The Joes end up in the wrong location in space and have to travel at "slow" speed to Apollos. 

If Apollos lack the food required even to have one operator awake it could be logical in the plot that they also were short on reliable parts for the automatic control of the wormhole. 

[Pmfr]

22 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Someone able to create a time travel wormhole from 2050 to 4010 would know better. It looks like a plot hole to me.

I agree, hence the need for help.

 

28 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

it could be logical in the plot that they also were short on reliable parts for the automatic control of the wormhole.

In the narrative, the wormhole generator is a completely automated system (no operator needed / located in an Apollo's underground facility) that generates the wormhole path and, supposedly, leaves it on for the intended time of travel (while the Apollos sleep).

33 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

While Apollos are in cryo the wormhole has a minor malfunction. The Joes end up in the wrong location in space and have to travel at "slow" speed to Apollos.

The malfunction is feasible, but having the Joes end up in a wrong location in space and then travel at 'slow' speed to the Apollos conflicts with the the narrative. The thing is that when the Joes go through the wormhole and arrive at the Apollo's system, they are also awaken from their own cryogenic sleep - they don't know were they are. In fact, in my narrative their ship sustains damaged while traversing the wormhole.

Ghideon, that's some creative brainstorming right there, exactly what I need. 🙂

This should probably be posted in some sort of story writing forum, but I surely wouldn't have the scientific insight I have here.

Any more ideas? 😁

[Ghideon]

2 hours ago, Pmfr said:

The malfunction is feasible, but having the Joes end up in a wrong location in space and then travel at 'slow' speed to the Apollos conflicts with the the narrative.

Ok. It is tricky to know what the narrative allows when the narrative is only partially shared.

 

2 hours ago, Pmfr said:

In fact, in my narrative their ship sustains damaged while traversing the wormhole.

Ok.

2 hours ago, Pmfr said:

Any more ideas?

Yes, several. Below is an example of a possible fictional passage.

Disclaimer: The following is on topic but maybe more suitable in the lounge section, feel free to move the post. Below is fiction, no science*.

To reach the designated location in time and space the Apollos had to stretch the wormhole technology to its limits. Some parameters had to be configured outside specifications, preferred operational margins were neglected and several safety function were overridden or disabled completely. The feedback from the system displayed several warnings but the crew managed to find a stable configuration just in time. They knew that the travel time would be slightly affected by the energy fluctuations due to the load but that was acceptable. What they unfortunately failed to realise was the sensitivity to events in real space, between entry and exit points, that the tweaking had introduced. By a mere chance a star, with a mass about 95 times the sun, turned into a Type II-P supernova while the wormhole was open. The sudden burst of energy in the line of sight between Apollos and Joes locations affected the wormhole path, making it bend and curl; anyone traveling through had to spend a lot more time in there. Such a prolonged time also had negative impact on crucial systems onboard any vehicles passing through. Any traveler through the wormhole would not only arrive very much later than expected, they would need quite a bit of luck to arrive in an operational vehicle. 

 

*) one exception actually, as far as i know a star of 95 times the mass of sun can turn into a type II-P supernova.

 

 

[Pmfr]

Ghideon, the idea of the supernova is superb. I like it... a lot.

I'm going to make small tweaks here and there and add your idea to my narrative... with your permission, of course.

I'm thinking... would you be willing to read what I've written so far and give me a scientific criticizing opinion? I would trust you not to share it with anyone, of course. 🙂 I'd share it by pm.

 

Thank you so much.

[Ghideon]

9 hours ago, Pmfr said:

Ghideon, the idea of the supernova is superb.

Thanks, feel free to tweak and use the idea! *

 

9 hours ago, Pmfr said:

I'm thinking... would you be willing to read what I've written so far and give me a scientific criticizing opinion?

That would be possible. But there is a catch; we know that the narrative require elements far outside of the mainstream science. So the scientifically it will not work and that is already known. My critique, from science point of view, would be "This is completely impossible according to currently accepted scientific models." 

What we could do is extract the parts that can be strictly scientific and analyse those while reducing any "explanations" of the unscientific ones to a bare minimum. The example above with the supernova would be: The wormhole technology is not explained since it is not possible according to current understanding. But the supernova information could be based on an observed event making those parts of the narrative scientific. Anyone reading the narrative would find that the supernova event, as it would be observed in reality, is backed by theories and observations. The supernova's connection to wormholes is completely fiction and no explanation is provided, anyone looking for explanations gets into a dead end rather than an invalid explanation full of errors.

So I usually try to think the other way around, starting with the fiction and it's audience. What kind of non-scientific elements and explanations will look "true" or "correct" in the specific situation in the work of fiction and appeal to the intended audience?  What can/can't the audience accept? Does it have to look scientific to a trained engineer or scientist?

Crude analogy: Tolkien may give plenty of details about producing various types of ale, but maybe e provide no explanation how magic is actually working. 

 Tolkien gave a description: 

Quote

Tolkien says that, in order for the narrative to work, the reader must believe that what he reads is true within the secondary reality of the fictional world. By focusing on creating an internally consistent fictional world, the author makes secondary belief possible. Tolkien argues that suspension of disbelief is only necessary when the work has failed to create secondary belief, saying that from that point on, the spell is broken, and the reader ceases to be immersed in the story, and so must make a conscious effort to suspend their disbelief or else give up on it entirely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief#Criticisms; Tolkien, J. R. R. "On Fairy-Stories". The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays, George Allen & Unwin, 1983, pp. 109–61.

 

*) please send a link when game is released

[Pmfr]

You'll see that the narrative is still quite crude - a work in progress - so, no worries. I only ask for a pseudo-scientific-fictional eyesight, just as you did with the supernova idea.

32 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

*) please send a link when game is released

The project is still in it's infancy, so it's going to take while.

Thank you again.

[Ghideon]

On 11/6/2020 at 5:37 PM, Pmfr said:

The project is still in it's infancy, so it's going to take while.

I gave this a second thought. If the goal is to reduce the non-scientific parts you could try a narrative that is more compatible with current cosmological models. I'll have to do some assumptions and then present the scenario. Assumptions:

-The time travel and wormhole combination is not crucial for the plot. 
-Wormholes may be used in other parts of the game
-Joes are in space 2050
-In year 4010 the Apollos need to contact the Joes as they were in 2050.
-There should be an unexpected delay that Apollos did not intend

Below is a sketchy outline of a fiction narrative that could be used as inspiration. If you find it useful we could add details and specify the unscientific parts to see if they are acceptable.

Joes are traveling in cryo and by chance end up in close orbit around a rogue black hole. To a remote observer it looks like Joes time slows down, allowing Joes to orbit many decades. Joes, in cryo, does not experience anything special.
Apollos have some reason to try to locate the Joes. For instance they may have old records of Joes spacecraft sending a distress signal that looks more and more red shifted. Apollos detect a redshifted signal from Joes craft and manages to interpret it. Apollos send a mission* to Joes location. The mission spacecraft, getting close to Joes orbit, is also affected by the black hole gravity.This means the Apollos, in their frame of reference, will expect the mission to take a longer time. Some malfunction occurs, the mission takes more time than expected, for instance a basic repair for a few days in the orbit at Joes location could take several years in the Apollos frame of reference. The mission successfully pushes Joes out from the grip of the black hole and they travel to Apollos.

Result: from Joes perspective they have spent a few years in cryo but “jumped forward” in time many many years. From Apollos perspective the mission to bring Joes to Apollos required  much more time than expected. A narrative based on the above could have the same outcome as opening a wormhole to the past time but it introduces fewer elements that are completely scientifically impossible**.  

*) The mission could be unmanned.

**) There are still many issues of course but my intention is to present an idea that is "more compatible" with general relativity than time travel would be.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Ghideon
spelling and grammar

[Pmfr]

20 hours ago, Ghideon said:

The time travel and wormhole combination is not crucial for the plot.

Well, it's crucial if we consider that it's the only way to bring the squad into play.

20 hours ago, Ghideon said:

Apollos send a mission* to Joes location.

In order to avoid messing up too much with the past, I believe we should implement a sort of pseudo-scientific-sci-fi golden rule: nothing can travel back, only forward.

20 hours ago, Ghideon said:

-Wormholes may be used in other parts of the game

Wormholes are not actually part of any of the gameplay. They are only referred in the introduction (not playable), every time the squad and the Apollos talk about it and in the endgame that culminates with the 'Galileo III' planetoid hyperspace jump. The rest of the assumptions are correct.

[Ghideon]

2 hours ago, Pmfr said:

Well, it's crucial if we consider that it's the only way to bring the squad into play.

Ok

2 hours ago, Pmfr said:

Wormholes are not actually part of any of the gameplay.

But then the narrative and gameplay would not suffer from removing the time travel and introducing some other way? See my suggestion above, it allows for the same fiction but without time travel paradoxes. 

 

2 hours ago, Pmfr said:

In order to avoid messing up too much with the past, I believe we should implement a sort of pseudo-scientific-sci-fi golden rule: nothing can travel back, only forward.

Worm holes opening to the past opens too may possibilities in my opinion. NPCs * having such powerful options but not using them makes them look kind of stupid. I think it is easier to remove time travel than it is to invent a set of golden rules that actually works and are logical. Assume "wormhole to the past" exists as in the game narrative. If I had such a device (in a game) I would:

1:  Create a store room with useful things like one weapon, food, and medical stuff. Later, when I need things from the store room I do not get it from the store room directly, I fetch it from the store room via the wormhole to the past. That gives me endless resources. 

2: Get help from the future. Before making a crucial decision I would put a note with each option in my desk. Then watch the wormhole, opening from the future, remove the notes containing the bad decisions. Then I would follow the decision on the one remaining note. 

The above points are just quick though experiments what the worm hole to the past, in a game, could allow. I would personally try to change the narrative to use some other means to get to the results needed. The point I try to make is that a narrative that allows the reader to think about such possibilities will look more like a universe ruled by magic** than ruled by science. 

 

*) Non player characters

**) In works of fiction I have nothing against that. But in this case it introduces problems that Pmfr seems to want to avoid.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Ghideon

[Pmfr]

(Ignore this one)

Edited November 9, 2020 by Pmfr

[Pmfr]

So, no wormhole in the first place? I'll gladly welcome no time travel paradoxes at all (I also like the black hole idea*), but the Apollos DO have the wormhole tech, so, why not use it?
Your reasoning is sound though.

This means that I'll have to abolish entirely the Apollo's ability to create extra wormhole routes OUTSIDE of the 'Galileo III', as opposed to the 'Galileo III' creating one with itself as the entry point (just like in the endgame), for its OWN EXCLUSIVE USE (which is one of the 'core's powerful abilities’**, after all). I suppose it makes better sense, but I still feel the need to establish the "nothing can travel back, only forward" pseudo-scientific-sci-fi golden rule, otherwise we could still have time travel paradoxes, like the endgame resulting in the Apollos programming the 'Core' to create the wormhole and traveling back in time to, say... earth!?***
Now, the Apollos rescue spacecraft having a malfunction and being the only cause for them to wait more than the expected doesn't quite convince me. Possible solution: the Apollos simply had no way to know the black hole's category - size / gravitational influence / time affecting ratio -, which means that they would never now how much time they had spent in cryo sleep at the time of the Joes arrival - always ending up in shock (maybe they would have predicted a smaller type of black hole?). With both journeys - to and from the black hole - we're talking about a reaaally long time here - hundreds, thousands of years?

What do you think?****

Too bad, I enjoyed the supernova idea and felt that we only needed small tweaks from that point forward, but I gave it quite a bit of thought and deemed your idea to be a better course of action.

* It could feel as copycat of" Interstellar" though.
** I'm definitely not abdicating on this one.
*** Hmm... 😅
**** I need closure on this one. 😌

I apologize to the others for talking about narrative specifics in this post that were only disclosed in private message with Ghideon, but it's enough to get the idea.

[Ghideon]

6 hours ago, Pmfr said:

but the Apollos DO have the wormhole tech, so, why not use it?

If Apollos DO why bother with the Joes when they could handle issues in simpler ways as outlined above?

And you can have a fiction universe with wormhole technology without introducing time travel technology. 

If you must have a wormhole that acts as a vacuum cleaner to fetch the Joes space craft: why not let Joes travel in cryo on their regular route at slow speed? Let them be delayed or whatever. Year 4010 Apollos need to get the Joes spacecraft. Apollos open a wormhole to fetch the Joes. No need to open a wormhole to another time, with all the issues that implies, just a wormhole to a remote location. Then use the supernova idea to delay Joes traveling through the wormhole.

6 hours ago, Pmfr said:

Now, the Apollos rescue spacecraft having a malfunction and being the only cause for them to wait more than the expected doesn't quite convince me.

-The AI on the automated Apollo rescue ship has to spend some additional time decrypting 1000+ year old military grade security systems on Joes ship?
-Earlier malfunctions on Joes ship need repair to cope with the acceleration to leave orbit?
Just present what kind of events that would fit a narrative and from there we can outline some "scientific looking" scenario that sound plausible enough to an average player.

 

6 hours ago, Pmfr said:

With both journeys - to and from the black hole - we're talking about a reaaally long time here - hundreds, thousands of years?

It depends. This is fiction, you can state any appropriate time and have a reason for the black hole and Joes to be at that specific location that the narrative requires.