Are you atheist?

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

In any given society you will find, the privileged and the, so called, oppressed (your words);

Yes, so? That's true, and religion is usually one of the mechanisms by which that oppression is perpetuated. However, in the present context, I was explaining the Marx reference, as it pertained to the society he was writing about: the same one Dickens was writing about, the world of Oliver Twist. Not a contented pastoral idyll.

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

when they're in balance the Lord builds a folly, so the oppresed can work for their bread and be satisfied with it's effort to provide for itself,

Twaddle! They're never "in balance". Some landlords are less oppressive than others and a few don't even force themselves on the parlour-maids, then throw them out on the street and prostitution, like the righteous Christians do,  when those sinful women get pregnant. 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

it's a ying yang/good v evil kind of thing, as explored in many a religious philosophy...

There's philosophy, and theory, and doctrine and canon... and then there is institutional practice.

If you don't want to deal with that, fine; if you have a big enough rug to sweep it under, fine. But your pink-lensed POV does not invalidate my yellow-tinted one.

[mistermack]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

WTF are you talking about?

You're either playing dumb, or you're forgetting your own posts. In your precious sermon on the mount, Matthew quotes Jesus as saying you should turn the other cheek when you are attacked. How would you advise the Ukrainians to follow that christian nugget of wisdom? 

[dimreepr]

26 minutes ago, mistermack said:

You're either playing dumb, or you're forgetting your own posts. In your precious sermon on the mount, Matthew quotes Jesus as saying you should turn the other cheek when you are attacked. How would you advise the Ukrainians to follow that christian nugget of wisdom? 

Carefully...

[Peterkin]

I'm with the missiles, rather than the missionaries, on this one.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Peterkin

[cpu68]

I am an atheist because faith in God belongs to the backward phase of the development of civilization

[SergUpstart]

14 minutes ago, cpu68 said:

I am an atheist because faith in God belongs to the backward phase of the development of civilization

I am also an atheist, because I have found the answer to the question of the origin of the universe without the participation of God.

[dimreepr]

On 8/22/2022 at 2:58 PM, Peterkin said:

Yes, so? That's true, and religion is usually one of the mechanisms by which that oppression is perpetuated. However, in the present context, I was explaining the Marx reference, as it pertained to the society he was writing about: the same one Dickens was writing about, the world of Oliver Twist. Not a contented pastoral idyll.

How do you know the oppresed aren't content?

We all have a boss even the POTUS; it's perfectly possible to be content with a boss/oppressor (god and sundry others) (especially the kind one's) that let's you have enough to eat, and share with your family and friends, a roof over our head's and the time to appreciate what we have, that, often, the boss doesn't; because the boss struggled so hard to protect their privilege that they forget the pleasures of sharing. Ying Yang...

23 hours ago, mistermack said:

You're either playing dumb, or you're forgetting your own posts. In your precious sermon on the mount, Matthew quotes Jesus as saying you should turn the other cheek when you are attacked. How would you advise the Ukrainians to follow that christian nugget of wisdom? 

Turning the other cheek has nothing to do with war, defend yourself first, otherwise you won't have a cheek to turn; turning the other cheek comes after the war...

17 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I'm with the missiles, rather than the missionaries, on this one.

You make more friends with missionaries, when the missiles are no longer needed...

1 hour ago, SergUpstart said:

I am also an atheist, because I have found the answer to the question of the origin of the universe without the participation of God.

Really??? I'm all ears...

Edited August 23, 2022 by dimreepr

[Peterkin]

12 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

How do you know the oppresed aren't content?

Listen. There was a subtle hint in the Russian Revolution that all was not hunky-dory with the plebes.

 

12 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

We all have a boss even the POTUS; it's perfectly possible to be content with a boss/oppressor

Good luck! But first, try living a year in the conditions of the unskilled working class in 19th century England, or 15th century Italy, or 21st century USA. If you are content, congratulations. If others are not, that is their right. Or should be.

16 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

that let's you have enough to eat, and share with your family and friends, a roof over our head's and the time to appreciate what we have

None of these are guaranteed to the oppressed; they can be snatched away from one minute to the next, even should they have it already earned it. Jesus said so:

Matthew 25:26 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

27 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Ying Yang...

Horse Feathers

 

 

 

 

What motivates you to plead for the oppressor?

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

If others are not, that is their right. Or should be.

Indeed, even the oppressed. 

[Peterkin]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, even the oppressed. 

Could have sworn they were the ones I was talking about. Go be oppressed and happy with my blessing!

[dimreepr]

16 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Listen. There was a subtle hint in the Russian Revolution that all was not hunky-dory with the plebes.

That tends to happen when we don't have enough to eat (feeding of the 5 thousand springs to mind), the political/philosophy pendulum swings in an equal and opposite way... 

Edited August 23, 2022 by dimreepr

[Peterkin]

38 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That tends to happen when we don't have enough to eat

That's what I frickin said! And What Marx said! The oppressed do not have enough to eat, or decent shelter, or clothing or health care or sanitation or education or leisure or anydamnthing. This why they are discontent and occasionally chop off the heads of their oppressors. But you and the various priesthoods keep insisting they should be "content" with their lot on Earth, because there is milk and honey and harp music in heaven... Catch 22: trying to get there before the oppressors are ready to let you off the rack is punishable by eternal hellfire. 

44 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

pendulum swings in an equal and opposite way.

No, it doesn't! Oppressors are hydra. The heads grow back and shield themselves behind another generation of prelates, preaching abstinence and selflessness through one face, gobbling swan's tongue and cognac with the other.

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, Peterkin said:

That's what I frickin said! And What Marx said! The oppressed do not have enough to eat, or decent shelter, or clothing or health care or sanitation or education or leisure or anydamnthing.

And all I'm saying is, oppresion is subjective and most people, oppressed or otherwise have enough to eat day to day, and decent shelter can be a cave if it's cold and raining.

18 hours ago, Peterkin said:

This why they are discontent and occasionally chop off the heads of their oppressors. But you and the various priesthoods keep insisting they should be "content" with their lot on Earth, because there is milk and honey and harp music in heaven...

I'm not saying they should be content because of what's to come, I'm saying they can be content because of what's come before (religion in this case), as the sermon on the mount is trying to teach, heaven is here and now and hell is never finding that out.

18 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Catch 22: trying to get there before the oppressors are ready to let you off the rack is punishable by eternal hellfire.

 Catch 22 is a joke!!! "me, happy happy happy, dead: you, worry worry worry, dead"

18 hours ago, Peterkin said:

No, it doesn't! Oppressors are hydra. The heads grow back and shield themselves behind another generation of prelates, preaching abstinence and selflessness through one face, gobbling swan's tongue and cognac with the other.

Yes it does, it's just that polititions catch up much faster than priest's and we tend to ignore the lesson's of history...

[Peterkin]

There is no point in pursuing this. You evidently live in a different dimension.

[dimreepr]

12 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

There is no point in pursuing this. You evidently live in a different dimension.

It's intersesting to note how often this is used to provide an escape clause, from this inquiry.

 

[Peterkin]

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It's intersesting to note how often this is used to provide an escape clause, from this inquiry.

It may be 'interesting', but I'm not deeply concerned with what it is you're escaping from, or how that relates to previous discussion.

My problem is simply that you have consistently refused, not only to respond to what I have actually written, or the subject to which I was referring, but the very framework of reality in which it exits. Therefore, communication is impossible. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Peterkin

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

My problem is simply that you have consistently refused, not only to respond to what I have actually written, or the subject to which I was referring, but the very framework of reality in which it exits. Therefore, communication is impossible. 

If you haven't been hungry enough to eat from a bin, then I agree, communication is impossible.

And you'll never understand how a God can grease your wheel's... 

[mistermack]

10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

If you haven't been hungry enough to eat from a bin, then I agree, communication is impossible.

And you'll never understand how a God can grease your wheel's... 

This is a non-argument. There's nothing wrong with conjuring up an imaginary friend. Without it, nobody would be able to masturbate. And it might even make dying a little bit less stressful. 

What's wrong with religion, is that it's not voluntary. It's imposed on little children as a true story, which truly is child abuse.

By all means, adopt an imaginary friend for yourself, when you are old enough to think for yourself, if you really want to. But don't abuse the minds of little children, when they have no defence against such rubbish. 

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, mistermack said:

What's wrong with religion, is that it's not voluntary.

Did you not choose your path?

[mistermack]

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Did you not choose your path?

No. My path started out with intense religious indoctrination. I didn't choose that. I eventually chose to reject it, and I got a lot of family grief over that. 

Very few people kick off the religious ties, but some do. 

The point is, how many people WOULD choose a religion, if they were not indoctrinated as children? That's what a free choice would look like. And which religion would they choose, if they decided to adopt one? The choice would be wide open. But no, people almost always adopt the religion that was forced on them as a child. More proof that religion is anything but voluntary. 

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, mistermack said:

No. My path started out with intense religious indoctrination. I didn't choose that. I eventually chose to reject it,

Rito...

[dimreepr]

Quote

The greater part of the population is not very intelligent, dreads responsibility, and desires nothing better than to be told what to do. Provided the rulers do not interfere with its material comforts and its cherished beliefs, it is perfectly happy to let itself be ruled. ~Aldous Huxley

Quote

Most people go through life with a whole world of beliefs that have no sort of rational justification. People’s opinions are mainly designed to make them feel comfortable; truth, for most people is a secondary consideration. ~Bertrand Russell

If we accept the limitations of our freedoms imposed on us by our own society, then we have to accept that we are all oppressed; from North Korea to Norway, but from Norway's POV, it's so easy to see the obvious oppression in North Korea, that it blinds them to their own and makes it acceptable to lay a portion of the blame on its people. 

Our culture teaches us everthing we need to fit in and especially how to "succeed", in that culture; in my culture (nominally atheist) success is excess, more food than we can eat, a bigger house than we need (too display to our rub in the face of our neighbour's and a big fence to stop those pesky economic migrant's from rummaging in our food filled bins. So, as an atheist, I think my culture would benefit from a bit of politics free religion.

21 hours ago, mistermack said:

No. My path started out with intense religious indoctrination. I didn't choose that. I eventually chose to reject it, and I got a lot of family grief over that. 

Very few people kick off the religious ties, but some do. 

The point is, how many people WOULD choose a religion, if they were not indoctrinated as children? That's what a free choice would look like. And which religion would they choose, if they decided to adopt one? The choice would be wide open. But no, people almost always adopt the religion that was forced on them as a child. More proof that religion is anything but voluntary. 

Tell that to the great one, Cassius Clay Also see above...

[Peterkin]

On 8/24/2022 at 10:03 AM, mistermack said:

The point is, how many people WOULD choose a religion, if they were not indoctrinated as children? That's what a free choice would look like. And which religion would they choose, if they decided to adopt one? The choice would be wide open.

Something like that did happen in the west in the mid 20th century. Due to a number of converging factors, after WWII, there was a strong movement toward secularism, liberalism, ecumenicalism and personal freedom. Churches were losing their congregants in droves; so much so, that a great many places of worship had to be decosecrated, sold and repurposed. Young people were experimenting, not only with sex and drugs, but also with philosophies. The Eastern traditions had terrific charisma for my generation - most of whom, of course, had only the most superficial understanding of those philosophies; they just liked the incense and flowing draperies. Most of the lapsed Christians of that period had never been deeply religious, and nor were their families; it was largely lip-service they were rejecting. We were actually headed toward a tolerant, inclusive society...

Then came The Backlash. Again, for many and complex reasons, most of them unconcerned with the soul or God or any of those imaginary things: what was actually at stake was far more practical.

[dimreepr]

21 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Something like that did happen in the west in the mid 20th century. Due to a number of converging factors, after WWII, there was a strong movement toward secularism, liberalism, ecumenicalism and personal freedom. Churches were losing their congregants in droves; so much so, that a great many places of worship had to be decosecrated, sold and repurposed. Young people were experimenting, not only with sex and drugs, but also with philosophies. The Eastern traditions had terrific charisma for my generation - most of whom, of course, had only the most superficial understanding of those philosophies; they just liked the incense and flowing draperies. Most of the lapsed Christians of that period had never been deeply religious, and nor were their families; it was largely lip-service they were rejecting. We were actually headed toward a tolerant, inclusive society...

Then came The Backlash. Again, for many and complex reasons, most of them unconcerned with the soul or God or any of those imaginary things: what was actually at stake was far more practical.

What's more practical than a healthy state of mind? 

Whatever the circumstance, imaginary or otherwise; for instance, you find yourself in an intolerable situation, is it not practical to invoke an imaginary friend to make it a torlerable situation, until such times when a smile is possible? 

Even an inmate on death row, can find God/imaginary friend (according to a recent BBC documentary) and look forward to tomorrow, seems a lot healthier than plotting one's own death in a land of plenty...

[Peterkin]

Uh-huh.

Was responding to Mistermack's post.