Is God visible!?

[Yusef]

Hi,

Before reading this narration you should know something:

*AbuHanifa is Imam of majority of Sunni-muslims,

*Imam Ja'far As-Sadeq[S.A.A] is the 6th Imam of the 12Imams of Shi'a-Muslims

[The same 12 stars of the woman of the Revelation of John[pbuh]]

*Bohlul[r.a] was whom the Caliph Harun-ArRashid commanded him to command soldiers to kill the 7th Imam, Moses Al-Kadhem[S.A.A] but he made himself crazy and didn't kill him

Also he was one of the 4000 students of the Imam[S.A.A]

Sunnies reject the FreeWill,

But Shi'a believe in FreeWill + Bada'

 

Well, let's go to the narration

 

Once Bahlul heard Imam Abu Hanifah(who lived in Kufa) telling his disciples that, "I have heard three things from Imam Jafar-As-Sadiq(A.S) which I think are wrong." The disciples asked what those things were. Imam Abu Hanifah said:

"First of all, Imam Jafar-As-Sadiq(A.S) says that Allah cannot be seen. But it is wrong. If a thing does exist, then it must be seen. Secondly, he says that Satan will be punished in Hell. But it is absurd. Because Satan was created from fire; how can fire do any harm to a thing or person made of fire? Thirdly, he says that a man's action is done by the will and power, and that he is responsible for it. But it is wrong because all the actions of man are done by Allah's will and power, and Allah is, actually, responsible for it."

The disciples applaud had just begun when Bahlul took a lump of clay and sent it hurling towards Abu Hanifah. It hit him on the forehead. He cried in anguish and pain. The disciples caught Bahlul and Abu Hanifah took him to the judge. The judge heard the complaint and asked Bahlul whether the allegation was true.

Bahlul: "O Judge! Imam Abu Hanifah alleges that he is suffering from a searing pain in his head because of the clay which hit him. But I think he is lying. I can not believe him until I see the pain."

Abu Hanifah: "You really are crazy! How can I show you the pain? Has any body ever seen a pain?"

Bahlul: "But, O Judge, he was just teaching his disciples that if a thing does exist, then it must be seen. As he cannot show the pain, I submit that according to his own belief, he is not suffering from any pain at all."

Abu Hanifah: "Oh! my head is splitting because of the pain."

Bahlul: Oh Judge, there is another matter which I just remember. He was telling his disicples that as Satan is made of fire, the fire of Hell can not do him any harm. Now man is made of clay, as Quran says, and it was a lump of clay which hit him, I wonder how he can claim that a lump of clay did harm to a man made of clay.

Abu Hanifah: "O Judge! Bahlul wants to go scot-free by his verbosity. Please take my revenge from him."

Bahlul: "O Judge, I think Imam Abu Hanifah has very wrongfully brought me to this court. He was just teaching his disciples that all the actions of man are done by Allah and Allah is responsible for those actions. Now, why did he bring me here? If he really is suffering from the effect of that lump of clay, he should file suit against Allah who did hit him with that clay. Why a poor harmless person like me should be brought to the court. What all I am supposed to do was in fact done by Allah?"

The Judge acquitted Bahlul.

[iNow]

I, for one, wish posts like these about god were less visible 

[joigus]

50 minutes ago, Yusef said:

"Oh! my head is splitting because of the pain."

My feelings exactly.

[John Cuthber]

4 hours ago, Yusef said:

Before reading this narration you should know something:

Yusef,

After reading it I didn't really know anything that I didn't know before.

What point did you think the post served?

[Yusef]

11 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Yusef,

After reading it I didn't really know anything that I didn't know before.

What point did you think the post served?

Neany!??

But i should assume nobody is aware about things such as differences between Shi'a and Sunni

And i should introduce basic info to others to open their minds to realize the better..

As we understood how should we discuss/debate with each other beyond endless conversation:

Introducing a series of thoughts Vs Invite and insisting on that

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, Yusef said:

But i should assume nobody is aware about things such as differences between Shi'a and Sunni

And i should introduce basic info to others to open their minds to realize the better..

As we understood how should we discuss/debate with each other beyond endless conversation:

Yusef, this is a scientific forum for quantum physicists and scientists from other disciplines... Mostly natural science and computer science disciplines..

...if you would come here and e.g. ask about the difference between pi-meson and phi-meson, that would be example of serious, interesting, fruitful, discussion... appropriate to the level of knowledge of members of this forum..

 

But you have no idea what is pi-meson, nor phi-meson, never heard about them, and how to create them.. You have no idea that they pass through your body every day either.. and what is their connection with cancer..

 

..and then you hear from the doctor "You have cancer!".. your's response is "God's will!"... If you would be smart enough, and learned quantum physics, you would know how cancer is created in human body, and you would not have to mis-refer to "God's will causing your cancer"..

Iran has program to create nuclear weapons. Therefor you are cut off from knowledge and contacts with western scientists.. Therefor there is high probability that you will contaminate Iranian lands with waste from nuclear weapon tests and the number of people having cancers will significantly increase (after decades after tests!).. You (i.e. Iranian people) will say "God's will that I have cancer". When the truth will be that you got cancers because of nuclear contamination caused by your political leaders decisions made decades earlier..

The political leaders of the USA and the USSR contaminated their lands and their citizens.. even on purpose, not pure incompetence.. e.g. ordering soldiers to be in area close to test explosion.. to later measure effects of contamination during dozen of years of their remaining life..

Edited November 15, 2020 by Sensei

[Yusef]

47 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Yusef, this is a scientific forum for quantum physicists and scientists from other disciplines... Mostly natural science and computer science disciplines..

...if you would come here and e.g. ask about the difference between pi-meson and phi-meson, that would be example of serious, interesting, fruitful, discussion... appropriate to the level of knowledge of members of this forum..

 

But you have no idea what is pi-meson, nor phi-meson, never heard about them, and how to create them.. You have no idea that they pass through your body every day either.. and what is their connection with cancer..

 

..and then you hear from the doctor "You have cancer!".. your's response is "God's will!"... If you would be smart enough, and learned quantum physics, you would know how cancer is created in human body, and you would not have to mis-refer to "God's will causing your cancer"..

Iran has program to create nuclear weapons. Therefor you are cut off from knowledge and contacts with western scientists.. Therefor there is high probability that you will contaminate Iranian lands with waste from nuclear weapon tests and the number of people having cancers will significantly increase (after decades after tests!).. You (i.e. Iranian people) will say "God's will that I have cancer". When the truth will be that you got cancers because of nuclear contamination caused by your political leaders decisions made decades earlier..

The political leaders of the USA and the USSR contaminated their lands and their citizens.. even on purpose, not pure incompetence.. e.g. ordering soldiers to be in area close to test explosion.. to later measure effects of contamination during dozen of years of their life..

Fivst ov ov this is a Subforum "Religions" and I created this topic here.

Second of off, i mentioned and introduced our Doctrines means "Shi'a-Islam" that is upon the "FreeWill" and you still talk with me about the wrong belief of Sunni-Islam against me who am a Shi'a!! LoL

 

Thitd av ao, i detest this Taghut/Abbasid regime of iran by "Religion-Centering" i mentioned before:

Republic Vs Kingdom

 

Fourth of owl, do you know i'm now in the hospital for my father has been under Corona-Virus and we family all are Coronaing and i have been healed why I acted the commandments of the Religion and never have eaten any chemical tablet... but my family[Simpsons] are all Self-Centered and have been ill

 

And i discussed/debated about the greatest scientists of the history in the previous posts i linked link 2 link

Just i introduce them to you. I don't invite anyone to my minds but introduction

 

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, Yusef said:

But i should assume nobody is aware about things such as differences between Shi'a and Sunni

They are based on a mutual misunderstanding of the original texts... 😉

[iNow]

3 hours ago, Yusef said:

But i should assume nobody is aware about things such as differences between Shi'a and Sunni

You’ve said many ridiculous and asinine things here, and this comment is no exception. 

[Yusef]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

You’ve said many ridiculous and asinine things here, and this comment is no exception. 

It's a sign of a fool person that:

* tells anything to anyone without any source,

* or denies anything from anyone without any source.

Source:

Foolishness Vs Logic

@dimreeprdimreepr discuss with source/Knowledge/reason/experience

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, Yusef said:

@dimreeprdimreepr discuss with source/Knowledge/reason/experience

In my experience, the source of knowledge is the reason...

[joigus]

4 hours ago, Yusef said:

But i should assume nobody is aware about things such as differences between Shi'a and Sunni

You assume too much. Shi'a and Sunni Muslims disagree about 'the roots': Who are the rightful heirs of Mohammed, and whether Al Bukhari was right about him and his doings, and probably many more things. I'm sure you know much more about it than most of us here do. It's a 'sources' problem (both about the authenticity of books and/or translations, and about the line of authority) very much like what was for Christians several hundred years ago in Europe between the many Protestant offshoots, and Catholics, and Jews. That led to unimaginable bloodshed between Christians and Jews. We know. Actually, we know much better than you guys do. We've killed each other, we've hated each other for so many more years. Most of us seem to have taken home the lesson. You, unfortunately, haven't.

That's a very big part of the problem, guys. A part of your community seems unable to take home some lessons from your brethren religions that are much older than yours. Jewish and Christians being at each other's throats for centuries. You're still obsessed with a couple of lines in a several-centuries-old book. That's, allow me to say, pathetic. Both in the most ludicrous sense, and in the most tragic one.

Take a look at Mandaeans, Yasidis, etc., and how they've become victims of unspeakable violence in recent years in the Middle East, just because they follow the rituals that their ancestors did. Probably with the same amount of doubt that you do yours. But also take a look at how some Muslims brothers die at the hands of each other because of a difference of opinion. And ask yourself: Is the interpretation of some lines on an ancient book worth the suffering that we see in the world?

The suffering of a child is not worth ten thousand lines of a holy book.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Yusef said:

It's a sign of a fool person that:

* tells anything to anyone without any source,

* or denies anything from anyone without any source.

Did you have a point buried in there somewhere?

I notice you quoted me prior to typing this, despite the fact that it does not seem to apply in any rational way to my words. 

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

You assume too much. Shi'a and Sunni Muslims disagree about 'the roots': Who are the rightful heirs of Mohammed, and whether Al Bukhari was right about him and his doings, and probably many more things. I'm sure you know much more about it than most of us here do. It's a 'sources' problem (both about the authenticity of books and/or translations, and about the line of authority) very much like what was for Christians several hundred years ago in Europe between the many Protestant offshoots, and Catholics, and Jews. That led to unimaginable bloodshed between Christians and Jews. We know. Actually, we know much better than you guys do. We've killed each other, we've hated each other for so many more years. Most of us seem to have taken home the lesson. You, unfortunately, haven't.

That's a very big part of the problem, guys. A part of your community seems unable to take home some lessons from your brethren religions that are much older than yours. Jewish and Christians being at each other's throats for centuries. You're still obsessed with a couple of lines in a several-centuries-old book. That's, allow me to say, pathetic. Both in the most ludicrous sense, and in the most tragic one.

Take a look at Mandaeans, Yasidis, etc., and how they've become victims of unspeakable violence in recent years in the Middle East, just because they follow the rituals that their ancestors did. Probably with the same amount of doubt that you do yours. But also take a look at how some Muslims brothers die at the hands of each other because of a difference of opinion. And ask yourself: Is the interpretation of some lines on an ancient book worth the suffering that we see in the world?

The suffering of a child is not worth ten thousand lines of a holy book.

The best of your posts on this forum...

[John Cuthber]

3 hours ago, Yusef said:

It's a sign of a fool person that:

* tells anything to anyone without any source,

* or denies anything from anyone without any source.

You just called all the prophets fools.
I agree with that assessment, but I imagine you didn't mean to do it.

[Yusef]

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

You just called all the prophets fools.
I agree with that assessment, but I imagine you didn't mean to do it.

Bravoo!

It seems to be a true debate!

Yea, you thought and understood this signs are matched on the prophets[pbu th]

How!?

Bcz they told people things without any source.

Well,

But i mentioned to other topics that we should bring our sources from:

1-Knowledges

2-Experiences

Otherwise we aren't anything but the fool.

Well,

Ask themselves[prophets] about their sources!

Ask them!

I answered this question before. U can look at other topics i brought link2link

4 hours ago, joigus said:

You assume too much. Shi'a and Sunni Muslims disagree about 'the roots': Who are the rightful heirs of Mohammed, and whether Al Bukhari was right about him and his doings, and probably many more things. I'm sure you know much more about it than most of us here do. It's a 'sources' problem (both about the authenticity of books and/or translations, and about the line of authority) very much like what was for Christians several hundred years ago in Europe between the many Protestant offshoots, and Catholics, and Jews. That led to unimaginable bloodshed between Christians and Jews. We know. Actually, we know much better than you guys do. We've killed each other, we've hated each other for so many more years. Most of us seem to have taken home the lesson. You, unfortunately, haven't.

That's a very big part of the problem, guys. A part of your community seems unable to take home some lessons from your brethren religions that are much older than yours. Jewish and Christians being at each other's throats for centuries. You're still obsessed with a couple of lines in a several-centuries-old book. That's, allow me to say, pathetic. Both in the most ludicrous sense, and in the most tragic one.

Take a look at Mandaeans, Yasidis, etc., and how they've become victims of unspeakable violence in recent years in the Middle East, just because they follow the rituals that their ancestors did. Probably with the same amount of doubt that you do yours. But also take a look at how some Muslims brothers die at the hands of each other because of a difference of opinion. And ask yourself: Is the interpretation of some lines on an ancient book worth the suffering that we see in the world?

The suffering of a child is not worth ten thousand lines of a holy book.

Bvavoo!

First of all you are talking about Al-Bukhari etc what are Sunni's sources..

Second of owl the sentence you have Bolden

"We know much better than you guys do"

It's about the sign of the fool that I explained[quoted] in other topics.

And they have no source for their claims.

Ask themselves.

Also ask me about my own belief means Shi'a with source.

Bring anything you want to deny my belief such as that other topic

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Did you have a point buried in there somewhere?

I notice you quoted me prior to typing this, despite the fact that it does not seem to apply in any rational way to my words. 

Do u know Cnistiano Nonanno the soccer player of Nean Mannin and his fviend means Tuner Messi soccer pnayer of Bnazin!? LoL hahahaaa

[John Cuthber]

23 minutes ago, Yusef said:

Ask themselves[prophets] about their sources!

Ask them!

I can't.

They are dead.

 

9 hours ago, Yusef said:

But i should assume nobody is aware about things such as differences between Shi'a and Sunni

Why would I care about the big endians and the little endians arguing about their invisible friend?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliput_and_Blefuscu#Satirical_interpretations

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Yusef said:

Do u know Cnistiano Nonanno the soccer player of Nean Mannin and his fviend means Tuner Messi soccer pnayer of Bnazin!? LoL hahahaaa

I’ll take this to mean, no. You didn’t have a point buried in there somewhere and this isn’t relevant to anything I posted. Thanks for confirming. 

[joigus]

1 hour ago, Yusef said:

First of all you are talking about Al-Bukhari etc what are Sunni's sources..

Of course. I know Al-Bukhari is a Sunni source. That's why I mentioned him in the point I was making about Sunni and Shi'a source discrepancies.

1 hour ago, Yusef said:

Second of owl [...]

Second of owl is... the barn owl?

What I definitely do not understand is how you have decided that the best place to discuss the finer points of the Qu'ran is an international scientific forum, as Sensei pointed out.

 

[Yusef]

23 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

I can't.

They are dead.

Yea.

But they claimed they had experience about conversation/meeting with God The Root of The All and The Science.

 

And we can't deny their meetings until one come and claim things against things they have said.

Then we just can start our researching about both claims and seek for the truer.

 

Quote

Why would I care about the big endians and the little endians arguing about their invisible friend?

I or my Religion hasn't forced you to think about that.

What is the subject of the topic!??

What narration i have quoted!??

Either accept/agree/believe,

Or

Deny/disagree/...

 

But IF you deny that, you have to bring/provide a source for your denying

THEN

Either we will be convinced and changed,

OR

We will have an other opposite source against your source and

THEN

Either you will be convinced/changed

OR

You will bring/provide an opposite saying against ours [with source]..

Again and again and times and again until the debate will be ended well

[John Cuthber]

48 minutes ago, Yusef said:

But they claimed...

And I can claim to be the king of China.

 

49 minutes ago, Yusef said:

And we can't deny their meetings until one come and claim things against things they have said.

That happens a lot.
Most religions say things that are wrong.
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/biblical-contradictions/

 

51 minutes ago, Yusef said:

But IF you deny that, you have to bring/provide a source for your denying

Two problems.

The one making the extraordinary claim has to provide the extraordinary evidence.
And that's you. *I don't have to "prove" that you are wrong, you have to prove that you are right.

 

53 minutes ago, Yusef said:

Either we will be convinced and changed,

No

That essentially never happens.
Religion never accepts that it is wrong- not even when you point out hundreds of problems in the scriptures (see above).
You talk of two groups who have different views on their faith.

They can't both be right.
Did either of them, as you say get" convinced and changed,"?

Or are they just killing each other over it?

 

 

[Raniyah]

In my opinion, Despite the religion, every one see the  god when he/she starts to believe his religious leader from bottom of heart.

[Yusef]

38 minutes ago, Raniyah said:

In my opinion, Despite the religion, every one see the  god when he/she starts to believe his religious leader from bottom of heart.

Bravoo for saying a thing without certain!

 

15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

And I can claim to be the king of China.

Well,

I have no any problem for your claim!!

Bcz i don't know who is king of those scorpion/everything eaters.. you or any other.. and don't want to know and it's not important for me.

And don't need to any evidence from you.

 

15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

That happens a lot.

Most religions say things that are wrong.
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/biblical-contradictions/
 

Are wrong????

Or you guess "are wrong"!!

I don't aware what wrong there are within other religions and don't want to know until they claim a thing against my Religion, Shi'a-Islam.

Then i research and start the same Algorithm i mentioned in the previous post.

 

15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Two problems.

The one making the extraordinary claim has to provide the extraordinary evidence.
And that's you. *I don't have to "prove" that you are wrong, you have to prove that you are right.

As you yourself mentioned, It is your own problem!

And one who makes the extraordinary claim, it's not important for him that one/others agree/believe/accept his claim or not.

And doesn't force others to agreement or not.

 

15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

No

That essentially never happens.
Religion never accepts that it is wrong- not even when you point out hundreds of problems in the scriptures (see above).
You talk of two groups who have different views on their faith.

 

Yea of course.

Bcz the Religion is the One! As God Is The One!

And those differences are bcz of some people have added/removed something to/from the scriptures.

 

15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

1-They can't both be right.

2-Did either of them, as you say get" convinced and changed,"?

3-Or are they just killing each other over it?

Bravoo!

1-Therefore the onus is on us to research/seek for the truer!

 

2-Didn't i convince/change in my belief about that topic that i claimed the antichrist is the same satellite orbiting!? I agreed my wrong and won't continue that claim anymore.

 

3-Those are the fools.

I quoted from our Religion that even majority of people of the paradise are fools!

The Foll means = close-minded people who think there isn't any truth over themselves

EVEN IF THEY ARE REALLY THE BESTEST!

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Raniyah said:

In my opinion, Despite the religion, every one see the  god when he/she starts to believe his religious leader from bottom of heart.

You're he's missing the point, Religions can't start that way, that's why god is a metaphor for the self; they started out trying to make you feel better about yourself and when you do; god is irrelevant to your story.

Edit: Sorry thought I was replying to the OP.

Edited November 17, 2020 by dimreepr

[Phi for All]

3 hours ago, Yusef said:

Bcz i don't know who is king of those scorpion/everything eaters.. you or any other.. and don't want to know and it's not important for me.

And don't need to any evidence from you.

!

Moderator Note

Two things here. No more slurs against groups, that's against our rules, and you won't get another warning. Second, if you aren't going to listen to the evidence of those refuting what you claim, you aren't discussing anything, you're preaching, and that's also against our rules. Discussion means there is a possibility someone will hear evidence that could change their mind. Preaching/soapboxing means you're trying to teach us your way no matter what, and that's better done with a blog.

Thread closed. If you start a similar thread, please make sure you're willing to learn like everyone else involved.