Gravitational waves embossed on Europa?

[robert1978bp]

I have noticed that bands on Europa contain smaller intricate wave like patterns.  I assume that these "waves" were not created after the widening of the spread, but simultaneously.

Could these be caused by gravitational waves emitted from Jupiter?  What do you think...

[swansont]

I doubt the gravitational waves given off by Jupiter would be anywhere close to being big enough to have such an impact.

[Ghideon]

40 minutes ago, robert1978bp said:

Could these be caused by gravitational waves emitted from Jupiter?  What do you think...

Most sources I've seen regarding the patterns states tidal flexing is involved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon) has plenty of references.

 

Here is a paper discussing gravitational waves and tidal effects:

Tidal forces are gravitational waves: https://arxiv.org/abs/1912.00591

Quote

In this paper we show in a covariant and gauge invariant way that in general relativity, tidal forces are actually a hidden form of gravitational waves. This must be so because gravitational effects cannot occur faster than the speed of light. Any two body gravitating system, where the bodies are orbiting around each other, may generate negligible gravitational waves, but it is via these waves that non-negligible tidal forces (causing shape distortions) act on these bodies. Although the tidal forces are caused by the electric part of the Weyl tensor, we transparently show that some small time varying magnetic part of the Weyl tensor with non zero curl must be present in the system that mediates the tidal forces via gravitational wave type effects. The outcome is a new test of whether gravitational effects propagate at the speed of light.

This does not say that there is anything special with Jupiter and Europa. Assuming the paper is correct*, and tidal models of Europa, the answer to the question in opening post may be more a matter of definitions.

 

*) I have not read it in any detail.

[Janus]

1 hour ago, robert1978bp said:

I have noticed that bands on Europa contain smaller intricate wave like patterns.  I assume that these "waves" were not created after the widening of the spread, but simultaneously.

Could these be caused by gravitational waves emitted from Jupiter?  What do you think...

There  is nothing about Jupiter that would produce gravitational waves of a high enough frequency to have wavelengths that short. To generate gravitational waves you need an accelerating mass. In this case, the only acceleration would be due to Jupiter's rotation. Any gravitational waves produced by this would have a frequency equal to Jupiter's rotational rate on 1 cycle per 10 hrs. Traveling at c, this gives a wavelength of roughly 10^10 km.

[Markus Hanke]

11 hours ago, Janus said:

To generate gravitational waves you need an accelerating mass.

You actually need even more than that - you need a non-vanishing quadrupole or higher multipole moment. This wouldn’t be the case for your average planet, unless for some reason it has an odd shape.

[robert1978bp]

12 hours ago, Janus said:

There  is nothing about Jupiter that would produce gravitational waves of a high enough frequency to have wavelengths that short. To generate gravitational waves you need an accelerating mass. In this case, the only acceleration would be due to Jupiter's rotation. Any gravitational waves produced by this would have a frequency equal to Jupiter's rotational rate on 1 cycle per 10 hrs. Traveling at c, this gives a wavelength of roughly 10^10 km.

What about Saturn's rings? (see attached)  Similar pattern compared to Europa's surface.  I assume these rings are the results of gravitational waves also.. Also I just noticed that these are not Sine waves but Square waves.  I think the larger waves you mention are actual seen in spiral galaxies (created by more mass from the galactic center), where most of the stars and nebula residing on the "top" of the waves.

Edited November 24, 2020 by robert1978bp
removed double quoting

[John Cuthber]

9 minutes ago, robert1978bp said:

I assume these rings are the results of gravitational waves also.

Why?

Why do you assume that they are the result of something which we know is billions of times too weak to have caused them?

[joigus]

Excellent answers. Yes, from what I know, most peculiarities of Jupiter's moons are due to extremely high tidal forces. Another example is Io's anomalous volcanism. Jupiter is squashing it like silly putty.

[Eise]

If it would be so easy to observe the effects of gravitational waves, why do you think this 'discovery' would not already be done earlier?

The first (indirect!) proof of gravitational waves was with binary neutron stars: very, very heavy bodies compared to Jupiter, showing that their orbit is slowing down, but in an extremely slow pace.

3 hours ago, robert1978bp said:

What about Saturn's rings?

We already have explanations for the structure of Saturn's rings: orbit resonances with the many moons of Saturn.

[Janus]

8 hours ago, robert1978bp said:

What about Saturn's rings? (see attached)  Similar pattern compared to Europa's surface.  I assume these rings are the results of gravitational waves also.. Also I just noticed that these are not Sine waves but Square waves.  I think the larger waves you mention are actual seen in spiral galaxies (created by more mass from the galactic center), where most of the stars and nebula residing on the "top" of the waves.

 

Again,  I don't think you actually understand what gravitational waves are and what produces them.  It might be that you are under the common misconception that it is gravitational waves that mediate gravitational attraction; that masses naturally radiate gravitational waves and these waves are the mechanism by which masses attract each other.  This is not the case.

Gravitational attraction is the result of a field that exists whether or not there are any gravitational waves produced.  Gravitational waves represent ripples in that field that are produced under certain circumstances.  They are very, very, very weak; much too weak to produce those kinds of visible effects in a ring system.  And again, in order to produce wavelengths of that size, you would require a mass oscillating at a few thousand hz, at the very least.

The spiral arms of galaxies are produced by waves, but not gravitational waves.   They are compression waves passing through the galaxy and are more like sound waves passing through a medium.  Also, these waves are not as intense as the visible appearance would lead you to believe.  The bright spiral arms are not bright because they contain that much more material, it is because this is where most of the new stars are being born.  The "gaps" between the arms aren't that devoid of matter, they just contain more older, dimmer stars than bright young ones.

[robert1978bp]

49 minutes ago, Janus said:

Gravitational attraction is the result of a field that exists whether or not there are any gravitational waves produced. 

But wouldn't that field be produced by a graviton traveling in a wavelike manner?  Like a photon traveling as electromagnetic radiation to produce the electromagnetic field... 

In spiral galaxies the arms are created by combination of the angular momentum and gravity of the supermassive black-hole at the center. 
Now, in this ring galaxy below the center is a very slow rotating black hole so the spiral arms are missing.  However gravity is still in effect with lighter areas on top and darker areas sloping downwards in a 3D wave like pattern.

 

[Janus]

1 hour ago, robert1978bp said:

But wouldn't that field be produced by a graviton traveling in a wavelike manner?  Like a photon traveling as electromagnetic radiation to produce the electromagnetic field... 

In spiral galaxies the arms are created by combination of the angular momentum and gravity of the supermassive black-hole at the center. 
Now, in this ring galaxy below the center is a very slow rotating black hole so the spiral arms are missing.  However gravity is still in effect with lighter areas on top and darker areas sloping downwards in a 3D wave like pattern.

 

 

Electromagnetic radiation does not produce an Electromagnetic field,  it carries information about changes in the field.  Likewise gravitational waves do not produce a gravitational  field,  but carry information about changes in the field. While you can't  have gravitational waves without a field, you can have a field without gravitational waves.

The spiral arms of a galaxy have nothing to do with the SMBH at the center.  The central BH has almost no effect beyond locally as it only represents a very small fraction of the total mass of a galaxy. It is the combined mass of the rest of the galaxy that dominates.