Should we lie to people for the greater good?

[Peterkin]

On 12/5/2020 at 12:58 PM, VenusPrincess said:

If you believed something was true, but also knew that others would be demoralized and angry at you for sharing that truth, should you stay quiet or lie about it instead?

Depend on the "something", my relationship with the person or persons I might tell it to and the affect of that truth on  their knowing it or not knowing it. I'm not always in position to judge the truth value of a datum that's come my way; nor am I confident of judging accurately the general good. 

Sometimes people are upset when told something they really need to know (Dad, I'm gay.) and later come to terms with far more easily than if they had been kept in the dark. Sometimes, OTOH, potentially upsetting knowledge is better withheld. (The grandfather you idolized thought you were a twit.) Some things that one might inadvertently discover are not in one's province to divulge. (Your big sister is really your mother.)  Sometimes they already know and being told that others know, too, only makes it more painful. Sometimes they suspect and are seeking the truth in their way, in their own time. Sometimes telling a secret arms the other person against diasappointment; at other times, blurting merely spoils a surprise

I'm not married to Truth, a truth or the truth: I have some respect for each of them, but no special reverence.  Communication has a purpose involving one or more other sentient being(s):  to educate, inform, warn, negotiate, solicit, assess, correct, convince, beguile, rebuke, control; to elicit information from them, to compare their views with mine, to collaborate on a project or form a plan, to share an experience or emotion, to entertain or amuse them, or simply to hold their attention.

This means that I don't have to tell everybody everything I know; don't have to tell anyone everything I know - just the bits that serve a particular purpose at a given time. As for opinions, I have so many, on so many subjects, attempting to share them all might well place me in jeopardy. That's not entirely facetious: in today's social climate, you never can anticipate how disgreement will be expressed.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Peterkin
left out words

[Agent Smith]

I'm beginning to see the light (or so I think).

The problem, as I see it, stems from taking an either...or approach i.e. lying is good OR bad, but NOT both.

Time to violate the law of the excluded middle i.e., in this case, lying is BOTH good (for the greater good) AND bad (for having deceived). We have to allow the third alternative (a contradiction). Enter dialetheism & paraconsistent logic.

[mistermack]

So the Gestapo officer asks you "We're looking for Anne Franke. Do you know where she is?" 

Do you reply, "sorry, no, I don't"  or   "yes, she's in that house there, up in the loft" !!

Wasn't there a comedy film where someone lost the ability to tell a lie?

[TheVat]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

So the Gestapo officer asks you "We're looking for Anne Franke. Do you know where she is?" 

Do you reply, "sorry, no, I don't"  or   "yes, she's in that house there, up in the loft" !!

Wasn't there a comedy film where someone lost the ability to tell a lie?

Liar Liar, with Jim Carrey, back when he was funny.

The answer to the OP question is "depends."

As you note, there may be a moral imperative to lie to oppressors and murderers bent on harm.  Or to those bent on self-harm.  

[Dropship]

On 12/5/2020 at 5:58 PM, VenusPrincess said:

If you believed something was true, but also knew that others would be demoralized and angry at you for sharing that truth, should you stay quiet or lie about it instead?

 

Good question..:)

The 'Law and Order' episode of 'Survivors 1975' explored the theme of whether it's best to sometimes withhold the truth [spoiler alert]-

The post-apoc survival group execute a suspected murderer among them, but afterwards two of them discover he wasn't guilty, so they decide not to tell the rest of the group in case it demoralises them-

 

[Peterkin]

Violating someone's trust is wrong; deceit for the purpose of harming another who poses no threat to yourself, or depriving them of something to which they are entitled is wrong; deception to gain unearned benefit or advantage is wrong. 

Story-telling is not wrong. Kindness is not wrong. Protecting someone's privacy is not wrong. Helping an ally is not wrong.

Telling untruths or withholding true information doesn't all belong in one big bag labelled LIES. It can't be judged with one big moral gavel. Human communication is entirely context-determined.

[beecee]

I'm quite comfortable is admitting that I sometimes lie, and often am not totally forthcoming with the whole truth, for what I see as the greater good. And sometimes for my own benefit, but at the same time, not detracting from anyone else..

I have though never lied to cause harm or injury to anyone else, and would never lie to detract from, or harm their reputation for any reason.

Anyone claiming they never lie, is well lying, at worst, or being less then forthcoming with the whole truth at best.  

[dimreepr]

On 3/21/2022 at 11:00 PM, beecee said:

I'm quite comfortable is admitting that I sometimes lie, and often am not totally forthcoming with the whole truth, for what I see as the greater good. And sometimes for my own benefit, but at the same time, not detracting from anyone else..

How can you tell, which is the greater good?

Everyone lies for their own good first, and if that conflicted with the greater good; some people will try to twist a lie into a truth...

[beecee]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

How can you tell, which is the greater good?

Everyone lies for their own good first, and if that conflicted with the greater good; some people will try to twist a lie into a truth...

I'm quite comfortable is admitting that I sometimes lie, and often am not totally forthcoming with the whole truth, for what I see as the greater good. And sometimes for my own benefit, but at the same time, not detracting from anyone else..

[beecee]

14 hours ago, dimreepr said:

How can you tell, which is the greater good?

Everyone lies for their own good first, and if that conflicted with the greater good; some people will try to twist a lie into a truth...

Edited March 24, 2022 by beecee

[Intoscience]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:29 PM, Peterkin said:

Violating someone's trust is wrong; deceit for the purpose of harming another who poses no threat to yourself, or depriving them of something to which they are entitled is wrong; deception to gain unearned benefit or advantage is wrong. 

Story-telling is not wrong. Kindness is not wrong. Protecting someone's privacy is not wrong. Helping an ally is not wrong.

Telling untruths or withholding true information doesn't all belong in one big bag labelled LIES. It can't be judged with one big moral gavel. Human communication is entirely context-determined.

+1

21 hours ago, dimreepr said:

How can you tell, which is the greater good?

Everyone lies for their own good first, and if that conflicted with the greater good; some people will try to twist a lie into a truth...

Well its often a personal judgement call depending on the situation and who is involved. Sometimes I will lie to my partner to save her feelings (and my ass) so this for me is the greater good x 2, since telling the truth has no beneficial outcome for either of us. 

I once gave myself a new years resolution that I would not lie under any circumstance and that no matter what the outcome I'd tell the whole truth. To be honest it was an experiment I decide to try out which arose from a conversation I'd once had on this very subject.

The experiment failed miserably (or was a success, depending on your view) as it resulted in many conflicts and I was actually slowly and systematically being pushed out of social groups and it was seriously affecting my personal relationships. I was actually branded an ass hole and a weirdo. It appeared to me that a certain amount of lying is required to be accepted in social groups and relationships.  

Edited March 24, 2022 by Intoscience

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

Well its often a personal judgement call depending on the situation and who is involved. Sometimes I will lie to my partner to save her feelings (and my ass) so this for me is the greater good x 2, since telling the truth has no beneficial outcome for either of us. 

I once gave myself a new years resolution that I would not lie under any circumstance and that no matter what the outcome I'd tell the whole truth. To be honest it was an experiment I decide to try out which arose from a conversation I'd once had on this very subject.

The experiment failed miserably (or was a success, depending on your view) as it resulted in many conflicts and I was actually slowly and systematically being pushed out of social groups and it was seriously affecting my personal relationships. I was actually branded an ass hole and a weirdo. It appeared to me that a certain amount of lying is required to be accepted in social groups and relationships.  

My point is, lieing is like eating, we need both for survival and both exist on a spectrum of health ie. addicted to eating, all the way to addicted to dieting; the majority of us tread water somewhere near the middle, but none of us are immune to the edge's. 

[Intoscience]

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

My point is, lieing is like eating, we need both for survival and both exist on a spectrum of health ie. addicted to eating, all the way to addicted to dieting; the majority of us tread water somewhere near the middle, but none of us are immune to the edge's. 

I agree, this pretty much sums it up. 

[dimreepr]

8 hours ago, beecee said:

My neg was for your snide remarks and yet another reasonable question left unanswered, in your answer's; what was your neg for? 

Now please, can we just discuss the content of the post, in a civilised manor?

[iNow]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Now please, can we just discuss the content of the post, in a civilised manor?

Is this one civilized enough?  

 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

Is this one civilized enough?  

 

It would do, for a start...

[Phi for All]

31 minutes ago, iNow said:

Is this one civilized enough?  

 

This is one of my smaller manors. I usually rent it out as a B&B, but I'll let everybody here use it for free if you can sit down inside and speak respectfully to each other while you discuss this issue.

[Peterkin]

I never lie, except for right now.

Once communication grows sophisticated beyond sounding alarms and directing one another to food sources, it can be used to mislead. Even body language can be used in this way: a grouse pretends to be injured in order to lure the fox away from its chicks; a beta wolf rolls over on its back like a puppy in order to avoid a beating by the alpha. Falsehood exists in the under the sea, among insects and even in the plant world. 

With verbal language, we are capable of using inaccuracy for embellishment, amusement, self-aggrandizement and ingratiation.

Also for status and social advancement and mating of course - extensively.

What's for breakfast?

Edited March 24, 2022 by Peterkin

[iNow]

4 hours ago, Phi for All said:

This is one of my smaller manors. I usually rent it out as a B&B, but I'll let everybody here use it for free if you can sit down inside and speak respectfully to each other while you discuss this issue.

I support us proceeding in this manner 

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

My neg was for your snide remarks and yet another reasonable question left unanswered, in your answer's; what was your neg for? 

Now please, can we just discuss the content of the post, in a civilised manor?

You are so easily offended, particularly when you make your own cartoon/movie oriented snide remarks. Is this something that we see with all philsophers?.And really, your red negs or anyone else's, do not altar my moral compass one iota. Try invalidating what I am saying instead of your own cryptic remarks and attempts at philsophy.  But hey, I'll accept your pedantic questions anyway! 

On 3/24/2022 at 12:26 AM, dimreepr said:

How can you tell, which is the greater good?

(1)Why do you ask?(2) What does good mean to you?(3) Does your greater good need to be the same as my greater good? (4)Is your greater good, greater then my greater good? Please supply evidence if that is the case.  eg: In my  moral ethics, the lives of thousands of innocent people, or even the one, greatly outweigh any consideration for the application of moral standards on the perpetrator of crime...including lying.

In essence, I'm quite comfortable is admitting that I sometimes lie, and often am not totally forthcoming with the whole truth, for what I see as the greater good. And sometimes for my own benefit, but at the same time, not detracting from anyone else. Everyone lies of course!

5 hours ago, Phi for All said:

This is one of my smaller manors. I usually rent it out as a B&B, but I'll let everybody here use it for free if you can sit down inside and speak respectfully to each other while you discuss this issue.

Is that a friendly lie? 😉 I'll certainly do my best though.

Edited March 24, 2022 by beecee

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, beecee said:

(1)Why do you ask?(2) What does good mean to you?(3) Does your greater good need to be the same as my greater good? (4)Is your greater good, greater then my greater good?

(1)I have clarified that post:

23 hours ago, dimreepr said:

My point is, lieing is like eating, we need both for survival and both exist on a spectrum of health ie. addicted to eating, all the way to addicted to dieting; the majority of us tread water somewhere near the middle, but none of us are immune to the edge's. 

(2) Do no harm.

(3/4) Like I've said "we lie for ourselves first", so ones greater good is always uppermost and if ones an 'addict' the lies are extreme.

Some people routinely lie to themselves, even the none addict's among us, which is bound to skew one's view reality, and in turn, scambles ones view of what exacty is the greater good.

[beecee]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

(1)I have clarified that post:

Can you show me where?

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

(2) Do no harm.

(3/4) Like I've said "we lie for ourselves first", so ones greater good is always uppermost and if ones an 'addict' the lies are extreme.

Some people routinely lie to themselves, even the none addict's among us, which is bound to skew one's view reality, and in turn, scambles ones view of what exacty is the greater good.

Is this why you use so much comedy or sci/fi routines to cryptically illustrate whatever point you are trying to make? 

In essence, I'm quite comfortable is admitting that I sometimes lie, and often am not totally forthcoming with the whole truth, for what I see as the greater good. And sometimes for my own benefit, but at the same time, not detracting from anyone else. Everyone lies of course!

[dimreepr]

10 hours ago, beecee said:

Can you show me where?

Not if you don't want to see or read.

[beecee]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Not if you don't want to see or read.

Just as I thought...nothing.

On 12/6/2020 at 5:52 AM, MigL said:

On the other hand, if your wife asks " Do these jeans make me look fat ?", run out of the room. There is no possible answer that will save you from a long scolding. ( no, I'm not married; but this generalization applies to girlfriends also)

or........

An extention on the fact that we all lie at some time or other for the greater good, might be the "Tooth Fairy" the "Easter Bunny" and Santa Claus that we tell little children......Young children need to induge in fun times, magic beings and such, as it adds joy and wonderment to their lives, and saves them from the toil, grudgery and dismal news we as adults must bare. It also enables a child, as he grows and matures, to wonder, and critically appraise the situation.

By the same token, it's a shame that other beliefs in magic like deities etc, are not treated the same as Santa and company. Instead, the brainwashing continues unabbaited into adulthood in most cases. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by beecee

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, beecee said:

Just as I thought...nothing.

"sigh" 🙄 If you say so.

If you want further clarification, just ask; Just because you don't like my answer, doesn't magically make it dissappear...

5 hours ago, beecee said:

An extention on the fact that we all lie at some time or other for the greater good, might be the "Tooth Fairy" the "Easter Bunny" and Santa Claus that we tell little children......Young children need to induge in fun times, magic beings and such, as it adds joy and wonderment to their lives, and saves them from the toil, grudgery and dismal news we as adults must bare. It also enables a child, as he grows and matures, to wonder, and critically appraise the situation.

By the same token, it's a shame that other beliefs in magic like deities etc, are not treated the same as Santa and company. Instead, the brainwashing continues unabbaited into adulthood in most cases. 

This reads like a rant from a religious zealot (my god/believe is better than your's), rather than a reassonable argument/critique for what is the greater good.