Food and plants (split from Why do scientist "think" they know everything??)

[Moontanman]

11 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Yeah you're right.  Sorry.  But I'm staunchly non-darwinian.  Sorry about that.

Your denial of Darwin is meaningless considering Evolution is a fact supported by mountains of evidence. If someone were staunchly non Heliocentric theory would you still respect their views? You are wrong, your stance on science shows us you lack the expertise to even discuss the topic of trace elements. 

Until you produce lab results that list the trace elements that are lacking you are wasting our time and yours. Trace elements is not some box you can just dump out, there are many trace elements, some minor and some major, some are used by all plants and some by just a few. Talking using scientific terms while denying science itself shows to me you are at best simply ignorant of your problem and just trying to use some catch all terms to excuse poor harvests or at worst you are a troll...   

Oh and BTW scientists know they don't know everything, if they did they'd stop.. 

[Bartholomew Jones]

11 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Your denial of Darwin is meaningless considering Evolution is a fact supported by mountains of evidence. If someone were staunchly non Heliocentric theory would you still respect their views? You are wrong, your stance on science shows us you lack the expertise to even discuss the topic of trace elements. 

Until you produce lab results that list the trace elements that are lacking you are wasting our time and yours. Trace elements is not some box you can just dump out, there are many trace elements, some minor and some major, some are used by all plants and some by just a few. Talking using scientific terms while denying science itself shows to me you are at best simply ignorant of your problem and just trying to use some catch all terms to excuse poor harvests or at worst you are a troll...   

Oh and BTW scientists know they don't know everything, if they did they'd stop.. 

That's not an argument against Darwin.  That's an unwillingness to accept, and a disinclination to argue.

[Moontanman]

4 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

That's not an argument against Darwin.  That's an unwillingness to accept, and a disinclination to argue.

Your unwillingness to accept reality is part of your problem.. 

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

I know I'm going to incur more animosity from this...The way certain economies apply science is unjust.  It actually makes people dumb.  Hear me out.  One of the richest cultural groups is pre-classical mediterranean cultures.  No refrigeration.  Why are refrigerated foods packaged airtight?  Here's why.  When left out they explode or implode, due to chemical change, giving the impression, bad!  The fact is, bad dairy product is a fantastic yeast for sauerkraut for example.  Just drop the cabbage in, salt, and do what you like.  The Romans (in my opinion) only preserved what suited them of Mediterranean culture.

Motive for dumbing people down?  Constant refrigeration keeps people to the grindstone.  (For example)

31 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Your unwillingness to accept reality is part of your problem.. 

 

I'm going to keep that a problem.

As long as there's poverty, personal poverty shouldn't be your problem.  As long as there's poverty, thinking you have something should ever be your problem.  The only good you can leave to posterity is a better piece of ground.

[iNow]

31 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

The way certain economies apply science is unjust

This is a fair comment, but I would suggest it relates more to politics and human nature... individuals with power making decisions that benefit some more than others... or which benefit themselves more than those they govern. It's not an issue of science or economics.

I'm reminded of the issue of gun rights in america. Most people who proudly support the 2nd amendment like to remind everyone how the gun is just a tool. Tools can get misused, but that doesn't mean the tool should go away. The problem is bad people doing bad things with that tool. The same thing applies to science and economics. 

Tying this back to the thread topic, that's just some "food" for thought. Hopefully it "plants" a seed for more accurate and refined thoughts moving forward  

Edited December 11, 2020 by iNow

[MigL]

47 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

One of the richest cultural groups is pre-classical mediterranean cultures.  No refrigeration.

I grew up in a classical Mediterranean culture ( south-central Italy during the 60s ).
We did not have a refrigerator.
But all perishables like fresh fruits, dried nuts, potatoes, preserves, etc., and wine/beer/pop, were stored in an underground cellar where the temperature was always about 10 deg., year round.
I remember drinking cool beer, in little stubby bottles, when I was 5-8 years old.
First time I got drunk was on cherries preserved in spirits.

[studiot]

54 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

I know I'm going to incur more animosity from this.

I see you have given up talking to me.

14 hours ago, MigL said:

Clint's 1955  'Francis In The Navy' ?
With Francis the talking mule ?

No  Jose Wales.

[Bartholomew Jones]

For example, disposable diapers are an enormous inconvenience in the longest terms.

[MigL]

Really ? You think that's his best ?

Did have a memorable line...

"Dyin' ain't much of a livin', boy"

[Bartholomew Jones]

3 minutes ago, studiot said:

I see you have given up talking to me.

I haven't.  I'm learning names and so forth, and between tasks.  I would not give up on something like that.  I should pause longer.  You're right.

And I'm deliberate about leaving my phone at home usually no matter what.  Maybe I should reconsider.

I often seem intolerable because I stand seemingly defiant.  My reactions are responses from one who resists most of the status quo, mostly as one; which I find imperative.

It's not sufficient to have what's right for your own.  Posterity is my neighbor.

[studiot]

15 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

I haven't.

 

Then perhaps you can answer a couple of questions for me.

18 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

For example, disposable diapers are an enormous inconvenience in the longest terms.

 

1) Are you a parent and if so, what do you have to do with diapers disposable or otherwise  ?

 

2) What sort of lighting do you use ? Candles ? kerosene lamps ? gaz lamps? tungsten electric ? flourescent electric ?  LED electric ? or do you just go to bed with the sun ?

 

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

7 hours ago, iNow said:

This is a fair comment, but I would suggest it relates more to politics and human nature... individuals with power making decisions that benefit some more than others... or which benefit themselves more than those they govern. It's not an issue of science or economics.

I'm reminded of the issue of gun rights in america. Most people who proudly support the 2nd amendment like to remind everyone how the gun is just a tool. Tools can get misused, but that doesn't mean the tool should go away. The problem is bad people doing bad things with that tool. The same thing applies to science and economics. 

Tying this back to the thread topic, that's just some "food" for thought. Hopefully it "plants" a seed for more accurate and refined thoughts moving forward  

Well put

6 hours ago, studiot said:

 

Then perhaps you can answer a couple of questions for me.

 

1) Are you a parent and if so, what do you have to do with diapers disposable or otherwise.

No.  But people were, who had no complaints about the "inconveniences" of children and child-rearing.  I use treated cloth for toilet hygiene.  And I was often elected to change diapers, the modern less civilized way.

6 hours ago, studiot said:

2) What sort of lighting do you use ? Candles ? kerosene lamps ? gaz lamps? tungsten electric ? flourescent electric ?  LED electric ? or do you just go to bed with the sun ?

Not yet, but I'm towards the use of free used cooking oil.

6 hours ago, MigL said:

I grew up in a classical Mediterranean culture ( south-central Italy during the 60s ).
We did not have a refrigerator.
But all perishables like fresh fruits, dried nuts, potatoes, preserves, etc., and wine/beer/pop, were stored in an underground cellar where the temperature was always about 10 deg., year round.
I remember drinking cool beer, in little stubby bottles, when I was 5-8 years old.
First time I got drunk was on cherries preserved in spirits.

Wow!  You're blessed.

Think of how much of the culture probably was lost.

10 deg celsius?

Edited December 11, 2020 by Bartholomew Jones

[MigL]

2 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

10 deg celsius?

Yes, about 50 deg F
Not quite the optimum refrigerator temperature of less than 40 deg F, but close enough.

2 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Think of how much of the culture probably was lost.

What makes you think it was lost ?
I can make a killer eggplant parmigiana, or a hearty pasta fagioli.
And I can make my own wine, from grapes ( imported California ).

[Bartholomew Jones]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Yes, about 50 deg F
Not quite the optimum refrigerator temperature of less than 40 deg F, but close enough.

What makes you think it was lost ?
I can make a killer eggplant parmigiana, or a hearty pasta fagioli.
And I can make my own wine, from grapes ( imported California ).

Nevermind about that.  Maybe I can tell you what I mean later.  50F sounds perfect.