Is Suicide right or wrong?

[MSC]

Pretty straightforward. Should killing yourself be morally acceptable as a right to choose?

[zapatos]

Yes. With the stipulation that the person is of 'sound' mind. Whatever that means. I've not thought through the details.

[MSC]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Yes. With the stipulation that the person is of 'sound' mind. Whatever that means. I've not thought through the details.

I've yet to meet anyone with a sound mind and our species is careening towards environmental disaster. Are any of us of sound mind? My loved ones tell me I am of sound mind, everyone else treats me like I'm crazy.

So is it permissable for me to kill myself?

Edited December 8, 2020 by MSC

[zapatos]

A sound mind is how we define it. As I said it needs to be worked out, but it won't be determined by comparing what your family says vs what everyone else says. We need to come up with a well thought out, generally agreed up, measurable definition. I'm pretty sure this already exists in places, I just don't know the details.

Assuming you meet the criteria, then yes, you should be able to kill yourself with a clear conscience and free from unreasonable criticism.

[MSC]

6 minutes ago, zapatos said:

A sound mind is how we define it. As I said it needs to be worked out, but it won't be determined by comparing what your family says vs what everyone else says. We need to come up with a well thought out, generally agreed up, measurable definition. I'm pretty sure this already exists in places, I just don't know the details.

Assuming you meet the criteria, then yes, you should be able to kill yourself with a clear conscience and free from unreasonable criticism.

Are autistic people of sound mind? I looked up definition of sanity and it used the word normal. I'm not normal... That being said, who exactly is normal?

[iNow]

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Sound+mind

Quote

SOUND MIND. That state of a man's mind which is adequate to reason and comes to a judgment upon ordinary subjects, like other rational men.
     2. The law presumes that every person who has acquired his full age is of sound mind, and consequently competent to make contracts and perform all his civil duties; and he who asserts to the contrary must prove the affirmation of his position by explicit evidence, and not by conjectural proof. 

https://ddclawfirm.com/staten-island-estate-planning/mean-sound-mind/

Quote

Of Sound Mind

The broad definition associated with being of sound mind is someone who has the mental capacity to understand what is going on around them and make important decisions involving themselves and their family. In other words, you have the ability to understand that you are writing a will and you are fully cognizant of all of your relatives and how you want your assets distributed after you pass away.

If a will is challenged because a relative does not believe the deceased was of sound mind when the will was drafted, then that can be extremely difficult to prove. Just because Grandpa Tom liked to wear his shorts backwards does not mean he was not of sound mind. He was a little eccentric, but not of sound mind.

Non Compos Mentis

Non compos mentis is the term used when someone is not of sound mind. Normally, an attorney will require some kind of proof in writing from a physician that a person is non compos mentis before drafting a power of attorney or a will. Once again, this position can be challenged when the will is read, but it is just as hard to prove someone was not non compos mentis after they have passed away as it is to prove they were.

The idea of someone being non compos mentis is usually not brought up until after they have passed away. In most cases, doctors will let family members know when someone is not of sound mind anymore so the family can make the proper arrangement. Many wills are challenged every year on the idea that the will writer was non compos mentis at the time the will was drafted.

 

[MSC]

Shit.. I'm of sound mind then. My psychiatrist never inferred or declared me non compos mentis, but then I haven't seen him in two years and cannot get another currently.

[MigL]

The question you're asking is
"When is it OK to take a life ?"

And the qualifier you're using is
'when it's your own ? '

Should the answer not be that it is never OK to take a life ?
 

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

A sound mind is how we define it. As I said it needs to be worked out, but it won't be determined by comparing what your family says vs what everyone else says. We need to come up with a well thought out, generally agreed up, measurable definition. I'm pretty sure this already exists in places, I just don't know the details.

Assuming you meet the criteria, then yes, you should be able to kill yourself with a clear conscience and free from unreasonable criticism.

I think this part is moot after the fact.

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

Should the answer not be that it is never OK to take a life ?

Of course not. We do it all the time to eat. Even vegetarians are monsters according to this loosey goosey suggestion. Mmm.... roast goose sounds yummy

[MigL]

Sorry, human life.
Don't like goose … too 'greasy'.

[zapatos]

26 minutes ago, MigL said:

Should the answer not be that it is never OK to take a life ?

Wait. Double negative alert!!!

The answer is 'It is sometimes OK to take a life.'

[joigus]

I think this is a very interesting question.

This is far from my area of expertise, but what I can say from my own thinking is that it'd better be phrased in a way that has a practical content, like, e.g.,

1) Should a failed attempt of suicide be punishable by law?

2) Should a successful suicide be subject to investigation, with similar intent than in other police investigations, with the purpose of bringing to account those responsible for the situation that put the person on the brink?

Some people may have suicidal tendencies without much help from others; other people may be just pushed to them by abuse or extreme injustice. It is possible to conceive situations in which the differences can be discerned, and action be taken.

When I was 16 I posed question number 1) to a philosophy teacher who unfortunately dismissed it on the grounds that we didn't have time to deal with it. Ever since this question popped up in my mind I've thought about it, but I haven't quite made up my mind about it.

[zapatos]

26 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I think this part is moot after the fact.

You're right! You'll be free of all criticism, reasonable or not! 😃

2 minutes ago, joigus said:

This is far from my area of expertise, but what I can say from my own thinking is that it'd better be phrased in a way that has a practical content, like, e.g.,

 

I think this approach goes hand-in-hand with the question of morality as the laws on this subject tend to follow morals.

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, joigus said:

1) Should a failed attempt of suicide be punishable by law?

Or maybe subject to the death penalty!

[MSC]

30 minutes ago, MigL said:

Sorry, human life.
Don't like goose … too 'greasy'.

Is autistic, human? Doesn't feel like it to me.

Feels like I'm an alien on a strange world where up is down, down is up, kindness is hatred and hatred is kindness.

[iNow]

23 minutes ago, MSC said:

Is autistic, human?

Yes, though it's not binary and instead exists along a spectrum

[MSC]

Just now, iNow said:

Yes, though it's not binary and instead exists along a spectrum

Tell me something I don't know, or tell this to someone that doesn't know, makes no nevermind to me

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, MSC said:

Tell me something I don't know, or tell this to someone that doesn't know, makes no nevermind to me

Lighten up. Don't ask if you don't want an answer.

[joigus]

45 minutes ago, iNow said:

Or maybe subject to the death penalty!

I haven't said I agree. I don't. When I posed this question to my teacher back then it was precisely because he was making an argument that suicide is a sin, and it's wrong --he was a Catholic priest. That's why I jumped "then it should be punishable by law --both human and divine-- for those people who aren't successful, wouldn't it?"

He said, "that's an interesting question, but we don't have time for it."

54 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I think this approach goes hand-in-hand with the question of morality as the laws on this subject tend to follow morals.

That's why I would try to bring it to the context of action and reaction. Right or wrong are pretty much just tags to me.

[MigL]

1 hour ago, MSC said:

Is autistic, human? Doesn't feel like it to me.

Feels like I'm an alien on a strange world where up is down, down is up, kindness is hatred and hatred is kindness.

You seem to have human foibles.
Like the rest of us.

I don't know what difficulties you may have in your personal life.
But this is just a voluntary internet discussion forum; try to keep it in perspective.
( and believe it or not, some of us are sad to see you go )

Edited December 8, 2020 by MigL

[studiot]

3 hours ago, MSC said:

Pretty straightforward. Should killing yourself be morally acceptable as a right to choose?

Why straightforward ?

In my opinion the headline question is pretty shallow since it assumes a binary choice of answers.

Real life is not like that.

What about those individuals who chose to sacrifice themselves to save others in all sorts of circumstances ?

What about Kamikaze pilots ?

What about the Hari Kiri of Japanese Officers ?

What about those who were forced into it for whatever reason ?

What about Hitler, did he jump or was he pushed and was his demise a good thing or a bad one ?

[Sanitarium]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

When I posed this question to my teacher back then it was precisely because he was making an argument that suicide is a sin, and it's wrong --he was a Catholic priest. That's why I jumped "then it should be punishable by law --both human and divine-- for those people who aren't successful, wouldn't it?"

I second this! This is how we should question to those who say this is that, that is sin. If it is sin, it should be punishable by both human and divine. Great that the priest did not say that not all sins are punishable!  Hallelujah! 

[VenusPrincess]

It is wrong. By killing yourself you are robbing the state of your future productivity after it has already invested many resources into you. You do not have a right to damage the state's investment.

[iNow]

15 minutes ago, VenusPrincess said:

You do not have a right to damage the state's investment.

Wouldn’t we need to fist identify in which state we exist before making such a proclamation? Even here in the US, our rights are rather different in the state of Oregon than they are in the state of Kentucky, for example.