Is Suicide right or wrong?

[mistermack]

19 hours ago, TheVat said:

It is an objective fact that humans, the vast majority of individuals, desire to live and thrive.

It is, at this instant, and has been for all of history. So if you restrict 'objective' to what you know, that's fine. The past is an objective fact, as is the present. But projecting the patterns of the past on the future is speculation. All you can do is make a pretty confident guess.

JIm Jones got loads of people to believe that it was better to die. Heaven's gate is another example. One of many. I know it's only small beer, but it proves that what people believe and want is malleable, even on life itself.

A mass suicide of most humans is still hugely unlikely, but it's actually far more likely now than it's ever been, due to mass communication.

I don't get why you are so wedded to the idea of objectivity in the subject of right/wrong. Yes, given what most people aspire to, we generally agree on loads of stuff. But in the end, if you dig deep enough, it only reflects the feelings of a majority. 

The reason that I'm so wedded to making the distinction, is that I've debated religious people in the past, who start with the concept of objective right and wrong as a given, and from that try to weave a convoluted argument for the existence of a god. 

[TheVat]

If you read my posts, I explained that I meant objectivity only in the sense of measurable outcomes for social groups and their members.  Twice.  And clarified how it was not a religious or metaphysical take on intrinsic moral good.  Have a good day, or night, depending on time zone.  

[mistermack]

21 hours ago, TheVat said:

If you read my posts, I explained that I meant objectivity only in the sense of measurable outcomes for social groups and their members.

Ok, you can call your dog a lion if you like. It doesn't alter the fact. If you read my posts, you would have seen that I supplied you with two official definitions which are nothing like your use, and which you chose to ignore. 

But that's your prerogative, have a nice day yourself, whatever day means.

[TheVat]

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

Ok, you can call your dog a lion if you like. It doesn't alter the fact. If you read my posts, you would have seen that I supplied you with two official definitions which are nothing like your use, and which you chose to ignore. 

But that's your prerogative, have a nice day yourself, whatever day means.

I did not revise any definitions, so that's a false characterization of what I said.  I pointed out the distinction between moral objectivity (i.e. that there is some objective condition that is a moral state) and objectivity of measurable social outcomes.  I suggested that the latter is a real part of science and can make findings as to how moral/ethical beliefs and practices affect the viability of societies and welfare of its members.  Nor was I confining objectivity to "what I know," which borders on a trollish insult but perhaps you meant well.  Indeed, I was opening up an entire world of data across multiple fields such as anthropology, ethnography, sociology, psychology, economics, population biology, et al.  

  It would seem to me that it is you who is choosing to ignore the most salient points of my previous posts and feeding them back in a dumbed-down form.  I already have sensed that you are not likely to acknowledge this or any other mistakes in reading, so I won't trouble you further.  

[Saber]

it  depends on  your   moral  beliefs .....

In  my  opinion  this  physical  life  in  the physical  realm  was    thing  i  begged  for and needed  so  much  before  comming  here

So  i have  to  pay  its price........either by  waiting  it  to  end.......................or  if  i  end  it  by  my own   i  have to  pay  its  price  in other means............

Edited January 22, 2023 by Saber

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, Saber said:

In  my  opinion  this  physical  life  in  the physical  realm  was    thing  we  begged  for and needed  so  much  before  comming  here

Do you have a recollection of begging for life before coming here?

[Saber]

44 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Do you have a recollection of begging for life before coming here?

I  do....but  its   never provable......to others.......

being  able  to  live in a  realm that  has  the  dimension  of  ( time )   so  im  capable  of  changing  my self is  not a  thing  they give to every body   for free...................

Edited January 22, 2023 by Saber

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, Saber said:

being  able  to  live in a  realm that  has  the  dimension  of  ( time )   so  your   capable  of  changing  your self is  not a  thing  they give to every body   for free...................

Who is "they"?

[iNow]

Nobody types like that. 

[Genady]

3 minutes ago, Saber said:

I  do

I did not.

I did not beg, I don't pay for it now, and will not pay in any "other means."

I enjoy it. A lot.

[Saber]

18 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Who is "they"?

Actually  its  (  it )   like   a he /she.......

 

the   one  creature  that has  created  the  dimension  of  time * and i  believe its  not  god.........
 

16 minutes ago, Genady said:

I did not.

I did not beg, I don't pay for it now, and will not pay in any "other means."

I enjoy it. A lot.

I didnt  say   ( we  did )  i   only  said  ( i did )  i mean  thats  only  my  personal  belief   i  dont  say  it must be a  general  beleif.........

[Genady]

15 minutes ago, Saber said:

I didnt  say   ( we  did )  i   only  said  ( i did )

But you said,

44 minutes ago, Saber said:

we  begged

and

44 minutes ago, Saber said:

we have  to  pay 

 

[Saber]

32 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Who is "they"?

i   have  a lot  to talk  about my  belief of that  creature who has   created the  dimension  of  ( time )   and   about the   dimension  of  time its  self.....but  im   fairly  new  to  this  forum an   am  not familiar  with  the  over all  atmosphere  of here and   your know   about  writing  non  scientific  threads.....you  have to  be  careful   how  you  put  down  your  words........so  the  other  people  dont  pick it up  as  the  writer  is  imposing  (  like   religious people  do ) .....and  thus go  to  an  unfriendly  state  with  you .............

2 minutes ago, Genady said:

But you said,

and

 

I edited   that  post......your  right.....i  have  to  refer  to  myself  when  talking   about  personal  beliefs

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, Saber said:

you  have to  be  careful   how  you  put  down  your  words

Sure, I understand.

If you clearly explain your position, can provide reason or evidence to support your position, and respond directly to the questions of others, you will get along great here even if others disagree with you. You also have the right to expect the same from others.

If you don't know, simply say "I don't know". If you are shown to be in error, admit to it and move on. No one cares if someone makes a mistake; we all do it.

If you mean "almost never", don't say "never". People will respond to the words you use, not the words you "meant" to use.

This is a science site. Logic, reason and evidence are important, no matter the topic.

[Saber]

13 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Sure, I understand.

If you clearly explain your position, can provide reason or evidence to support your position, and respond directly to the questions of others, you will get along great here even if others disagree with you. You also have the right to expect the same from others.

If you don't know, simply say "I don't know". If you are shown to be in error, admit to it and move on. No one cares if someone makes a mistake; we all do it.

If you mean "almost never", don't say "never". People will respond to the words you use, not the words you "meant" to use.

This is a science site. Logic, reason and evidence are important, no matter the topic.

I cannot  provide  reason  and  evidence........as  thats   not a  scientific  state  its   only a   personal  belief.....thats  the  reason  that  i  prefer  not  talking  about  it......or  @ least  till im new  here 

[zapatos]

8 minutes ago, Saber said:

I cannot  provide  reason  and  evidence........as  thats   not a  scientific  state  its   only a   personal  belief.....thats  the  reason  that  i  prefer  not  talking  about  it......or  @ least  till im new  here 

Well, this is a discussion site, so if you don't want to talk about it, it might be best not to bring up that particular topic.

[Saber]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

Well, this is a discussion site, so if you don't want to talk about it, it might be best not to bring up that particular topic.

i  want   to.....but  its  not  for this  thread  and  also   not  for  now you  know...................im  interested  to  share  my  thoughts.....and  see  what  others  think  about  it...........

[PurplePuppy]

Suicide is wrong because it is the act of deliberately taking a life.

Edited January 27, 2023 by PurplePuppy