Is Suicide right or wrong?

[zapatos]

54 minutes ago, Firebirdy said:

No, it's slavery because people who don't want to live anymore and are trying to end their lives are being treated like property to the government against their will because they being forced to live instead of quitting their own lives to stop working for the people who made suicide illegal in the government like slaves. Here's the definition of slavery:

"Slavery and enslavement are both the state and the condition of being a slave, who is someone forbidden to quit their service for another person."

By your definition of slavery nearly every law would qualify as a form of slavery.

Which of course renders the term useless. Perhaps you could find your own term and not try to redefine "slavery" for the rest of us.

[altaylar2000]

Wrong, but this is the fault of society and the government, not of those who doing it

I think that in Abrahamic morality, the blame for the suicide on the victim arose because the reduction in the number of slaves was not beneficial to the "elites"

[Ten oz]

On 2/18/2021 at 9:29 AM, iNow said:

Does the conversation change at all if we include nonhuman animals taking their own lives? I'm thinking of beached whales and the like...

I am not well read on the science behind why whales beach themselves. I have loosely read and heard that it is or can be related to illness.

[iNow]

20 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I have loosely read and heard that it is or can be related to illness.

Sometimes humans take their own lives for that very same reason, whether that illness be mental or untreatable.

Hope all is well on your end ✌️

[Ten oz]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

Sometimes humans take their own lives for that very same reason, whether that illness be mental or untreatable.

Hope all is well on your end ✌️

All is well. I just spend a whole lot of time out of internet service range as of late due to work.

[MigL]

If suicide was linked strongly to physical health, you would think the elderly, being more sickly, would have high suicide rates; the over 65 grouphave the lowest rates.
Instead the opposite is true; the highest rates are in the group 25-34, closely followed by the 15-24 group, and then the 35-44 group.
This would suggest societal/economic pressures and/or mental health problems.

See here         The Emergence of Youth Suicide: An Epidemiologic Analysis and Public Health Perspective (annualreviews.org)

Disclaimer : I haven't read it, just used the graph to draw my conclusions.

[Alex_Krycek]

On 12/8/2020 at 11:27 PM, MSC said:

Pretty straightforward. Should killing yourself be morally acceptable as a right to choose?

I don't it's morally acceptable unless a person has a serious and irreversible terminal illness.

[zapatos]

13 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I don't it's morally acceptable unless a person has a serious and irreversible terminal illness.

So it is not moral to kill yourself to save others? For example in the case of someone about to be tortured to reveal information regarding the whereabouts of their companions?

[Alex_Krycek]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

So it is not moral to kill yourself to save others? For example in the case of someone about to be tortured to reveal information regarding the whereabouts of their companions?

In that instance I think its moral.  

[zapatos]

16 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

In that instance I think its moral.  

What if a painful death was imminent but unrelated to terminal illness, such as being burned alive?

[Alex_Krycek]

7 minutes ago, zapatos said:

What if a painful death was imminent but unrelated to terminal illness, such as being burned alive?

Probably moral again.  I was thinking more generally in regards to the average citizen's life, not in terms of SAS / SEAL Team 6 missions or encounters with ISIS.  

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Probably moral again.  I was thinking more generally in regards to the average citizen's life, not in terms of SAS / SEAL Team 6 missions or encounters with ISIS.  

Okay, average citizen. 

Degenerative spine, intractable pain, confined to bed, no cure, no insurance, no family.

[Ryan Williams]

On 12/8/2020 at 6:27 PM, MSC said:

Pretty straightforward. Should killing yourself be morally acceptable as a right to choose?

probably, yes. everyone has a right to choose his way.

[Goude]

On 5/25/2021 at 10:58 AM, Ryan Williams said:

probably, yes. everyone has a right to choose his way.

Suicide has many considerations. Usually friends, and family are devastated by a suicide in the family. Some has called suicide the most selfish thing one can do. There are considerations of health, pain, and mental problems that could cause a suicide. I heard suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I know religion has driven some to suicide. Devils, demons, and eternal hell being the cause. Then there is the legal part of it.

It is a complicated question. It is a unique question for the individual considering it.

I have talked to many of those wanting to take their own lives, and as expected, some didn't and some did.

Counseling is a necessary part of considering suicide. The best way to help IMHO is to educate, there is more to this world than we can know.

The following quote is from “Emmanuel’s Book II, The Choice for Love,” compiled by Pat Rodegast and Judith Stanton.

I want to remind you that those who commit suicide recognize immediately the futility of what they believed was the final act of self-destruction and escape. They gather quickly all the details of what happened. Then the wisdom and love that is there instructs, directs, and sends them back to the planet.

The longing for death can, when it comes from remembering, be a voice from Home. When it comes from a desire to escape then I’m afraid it’s only that.

[zapatos]

44 minutes ago, Goude said:

I heard suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Not everyone commits suicide due to temporary problems. Incurable painful diseases are not a temporary problem.

[TheVat]

 If I don't have dependents who are still placing trust in me to give care and protection, and I feel that I'm at the end of my life and no further interventions can give any quality of life or respite from pain, then it's no one's business what measures I take so long as they are not hazardous to others (nothing that starts a fire, or exposes other tenants to gas fumes, etc.).  As Zapatos (haven't figured out how to tag names here, yet) noted, there are incurable conditions that ravage any quality of life and are definitely not temporary.  

For those whose spiritual practice is set against suicide, I think that's cool and I have no problem with their choice to take what they see as a spiritual path of suffering.  However, to impose that spiritual practice on others is something that would tend to lead towards totalitarian authority and theocracy, which is contrary to principles of freedom that I hold dear. 

One small dent in freedom I would suggest:  if you plan to self-euthanize, be responsible and make sure someone knows in a timely fashion.  Years ago, we had a neighbor who did so, and they didn't have a lot of connections of the type who would check in on you.  (we were a couple houses down, and didn't know her well, and wished later we had reached out more)  So it was almost a week post mortem before the police showed up, when the adjacent neighbor noticed both the absence and a smell coming from the house.  There is diminished dignity in such a situation, and it is pretty horrific for those who have to deal with the remains.  (there was another case, not local, where someone did that, but let their dog out first, apparently knowing she would raise a ruckus pretty quickly.  In that incident, the decedent was found right away) 

[iNow]

6 minutes ago, TheVat said:

As Zapatos (haven't figured out how to tag names here, yet) noted

Put an @ symbol in front of it, like this: @TheVat

[beecee]

When we get down to the nitty gritty, everyone's life is there own. I'm not sure how I would feel if diagnosed with a terminal disease, and be in constant agonising pain. It wouldn't be nice that's for sure, and I can understand how a person in that predicament may feel like ending it. I remember a case where a husband assisted his terminally ill wife to end it. To that end, I support euthenasia to end such suffering, if agreed to by the sufferer.

For anyone else thinking of ending it due to for example, cronic depression, drugs etc, or similar, then seeking the best psychological medical advice is a must, particularly if that person is youngish. A responsible society should make sure such advice is always at hand.

 

[John Cuthber]

On 12/8/2020 at 6:30 PM, iNow said:

Or maybe subject to the death penalty!

It may have been.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14374296

[iNow]

A tale as old as time... Humans are ridiculous, sometimes. 

[LazyLemonLucas]

I have a textbook called "Understanding Abnormal Psychology (Eighth Edition)" and it reads on page 412 and 413: 

"The following letter captured worldwide attention when a twenty-one-year-old paralegic, Vincent Humbert, wrote a special appeal to French president Jacques Chirac asking to end his own life:

Mr. Chirac,

        My respects to you, Mr. president.

        My name is Vincent Humbert, I am 21. I was in a traffic accident on 24 September 200. I spent nine months in a coma. I am currently in Helio-Marins hospital in Berck, in the Pas-de-Calais region.

        All my vital organs were affected, except for my hearing and my brain, which alllows me a little comfort.

        I can move my right hand very slightly, putting pressure with my thumb on each letter of the alphabet. These letters make up words and the words form sentences. This is my only method of communication. I currently have a nurse beside me, who spells me the alphabet separating vowels and consonants.

        This is how I have decided to write you [sic]. The doctors have decided to send me to a specialised clinic. You have the right of pardon and I am asking for the right to die.

        I would like to do this clearly for myself but especially for my mother; she has left her old life to be by my side, here in Berck, working morning and evening after visiting me, seven days out of seven, without a day of rest. And all this to be able to pay the rent for her miserable studio flat. . ."

There is more to this letter but I stopped here to save character space. I am sure you can find more of it online (though it might be in French), but I digress.

My point is: I would say, yes. The right to die is as important as the right to live, or the right to a pardon according to Humbert. Suicide is caused by a lack of hope. With an invalid like Humbert, there is no doubt in my mind that there cannot be more hope for him. It is simply a recognition of reality and he himself knew this.

Edited May 6, 2022 by LazyLemonLucas

[Peterkin]

Nobody can possibly tell anybody else whether their suicide is right or wrong. It's not a question of right and wrong; it's a question of being able or unable to tolerate one's life. Entirely subjective. 

[Intoscience]

5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Nobody can possibly tell anybody else whether their suicide is right or wrong. It's not a question of right and wrong; it's a question of being able or unable to tolerate one's life. Entirely subjective. 

I agree, though I feel that it all depends on the circumstances. 

I often say to my partner, people should be free to do what they want, provided it causes no harm to others, directly or indirectly. 

[Peterkin]

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I often say to my partner, people should be free to do what they want, provided it causes no harm to others, directly or indirectly. 

Yes... But..

This had probably been covered already; I have internet service problems right now, so it's hard to navigate back and find out what's been said; forgive me if this is redundant.

Harm to others is very difficult to measure, especially from the POV of someone who finds life difficult to bear. Should he go on suffering for the sake of his children? If their survival depends on him, perhaps. If, however, they insist on his continuing to suffer his life rather then they should suffer his loss, who is doing the the harm to whom? Many suicides do it in order to save their loved from the burden of their own continued existence. Short term grief, even tainted with secret guilt, is easier to recover from than the long-term hardship and secret resentment of caring for an incapacitated dependent.

Then again, some people (notably jilted lovers and frustrated teenagers) kill themselves out of spite, to punish somebody. They should stopped and given time, whether they want it or not, to reconsider. Because they usually do.    

[Genady]

The two most famous suicides:

Two households, both alike in dignity
(In fair Verona, where we lay our scene),
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-crossed lovers take their life;
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Doth with their death bury their parents’ strife.
The fearful passage of their death-marked love
And the continuance of their parents’ rage,
Which, but their children’s end, naught could remove,
Is now the two hours’ traffic of our stage;
The which, if you with patient ears attend,
What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.