On throwing leftism under the bus as an anti-theist

[ScienceNostalgia101]

On other sites, back when I didn't value honesty as much, I used to have a nasty habit of throwing various things associated with leftism (cannabis culture, criticism of capitalism, etc...) under the bus to see if people respect a non-liberal anti-theist more than a liberal one. It seems not to have worked.

 

As if to drive the point home, religious-but-otherwise-leftist colleagues of mine IRL seem to get (relatively) more respect than centrist anti-theists.

 

Over the years my disagreements with the rest of the left have increased for real anyway, yet I regret trying to throw it under the bus more than ever before. As if on cue, it's now down to a few weeks before Georgians decide whether to vote for a Democrat Reverend or a challenger who could tip the balance in favour of the Republican Party, with its recent track record of cowering before Trump.

 

How public a show should those of us who regret attempting to throw the left under the bus make of this? I don't want to put my real name out there, as it could cost me my job, but would drawing attention (by whatever other means are available) to the fact that there were people like us out there harm the reputations of anti-theism and/or leftism, or could it help one and/or the other?

[iNow]

38 minutes ago, ScienceNostalgia101 said:

How public a show should those of us who regret attempting to throw the left under the bus make of this?

This population is likely to be vanishingly small, and any public showings unnoticed 

[MigL]

Personally, I don't see a connection.
And think you put too much value on labels.
( what  is ANTI-theist ??? )

[iNow]

Just now, MigL said:

what  is ANTI-theist ???

Think Christopher Hitchens, or what some might call rabid atheists... bulldog on the attack, not just a nonbeliever 

[MigL]

So an anti-theist is just as bad as a theist who wants to force his own personal beliefs on others ?

[iNow]

Depends on who you ask

[ScienceNostalgia101]

More precisely, the distinction is between "personally doesn't happen to believe in God" and "considers belief in God a bad thing." The former I wouldn't want to conflate with the latter; they shouldn't need to actively oppose it to be protected from being suspected of ill intent for having some foundation for morality other than some ancient internally contradictory scriptures; but at the same time I don't think it's a coincidence that "belief in God is a good thing" is just a milder version of the same beliefs that lead people to mistrust atheists and anti-theists alike.

 

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Throw leftism under the bus, people will say "this is how little people value honesty when they don't believe in God!" Refuse to and people say "this is how much people will fall for everything leftism is saying this week when they don't believe in God!"

[iNow]

5 hours ago, ScienceNostalgia101 said:

Throw leftism under the bus, people will say "this is how little people value honesty when they don't believe in God!" Refuse to and people say "this is how much people will fall for everything leftism is saying this week when they don't believe in God!"

Which people?

[Area54]

6 hours ago, ScienceNostalgia101 said:

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Throw leftism under the bus, people will say "this is how little people value honesty when they don't believe in God!" Refuse to and people say "this is how much people will fall for everything leftism is saying this week when they don't believe in God!"

You appear to be conflating leftists with atheists. Perhaps you've lived in America for too long. There are many Christian leftists. I learned the principles of socialism from sermons and Sunday School. So, I've either misunderstood your position, or your views don't reflect reality.

[iNow]

17 minutes ago, Area54 said:

So, I've either misunderstood your position, or your views don't reflect reality.

Don’t sell yourself short. Could very well be both  

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Area54 said:

You appear to be conflating leftists with atheists. Perhaps you've lived in America for too long. There are many Christian leftists. I learned the principles of socialism from sermons and Sunday School. So, I've either misunderstood your position, or your views don't reflect reality.

Another example of society adopting willfully sloppy definitions for issues they become passionate about. Get 100 people to define "leftist" or "atheist" or "socialist" and we see how badly aligned they all are. 

[iNow]

^What a typical elitist thing to say. Why don’t you stay in your ivory tower, Phi! 😂 

[ScienceNostalgia101]

Actually, I'm Canadian, although to be fair my association of religion with the right might have developed listening to a lot of American news.

 

I still suspect it's not just Trump voters who'd condemn atheists for being left-wing, but to a lesser extent centrists and independents as well; you'll note that Joe Biden seems far more in favour of religion than, let's say, Bernie Sanders. (Glad as I am Biden won instead of Trump.)

[PoetheProgrammer]

2 hours ago, ScienceNostalgia101 said:

I still suspect it's not just Trump voters who'd condemn atheists for being left-wing, but to a lesser extent centrists and independents as well; you'll note that Joe Biden seems far more in favour of religion than, let's say, Bernie Sanders. (Glad as I am Biden won instead of Trump.)

Not sure this is true anymore as the new atheist movement is considered a predecessor to the alt-right.  I don’t think religion is a good indicator of political leanings in the present day and only ever was because the USSR was officially an atheist state.

[swansont]

3 hours ago, PoetheProgrammer said:

Not sure this is true anymore as the new atheist movement is considered a predecessor to the alt-right.  

Considered by whom? (citation needed)

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, PoetheProgrammer said:

Not sure this is true anymore as the new atheist movement is considered a predecessor to the alt-right.

From what I have seen, "Alt Right" at least pretend to be Christians.

They claim to be theists- they go to church  and say that Trump (or whoever) is God's chosen president.

[PoetheProgrammer]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

Considered by whom? (citation needed)

it’s such a common relation I’m surprised you’ve never heard of it.
http://feature.politicalresearch.org/whats-the-matter-with-secularism

https://www.vice.com/en/article/3k7jx8/too-many-atheists-are-veering-dangerously-toward-the-alt-right

https://www.rysec.org/event/atheism-and-the-alt-right/

Namely it’s a pretty straight forward path from the New Athiest Movement of the 2000s -> “Intellectual Athiesm” like Sam Harris -> Alt Right

 

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

From what I have seen, "Alt Right" at least pretend to be Christians.

They claim to be theists- they go to church  and say that Trump (or whoever) is God's chosen president.

Id argue that is just American Conservatives (the line is frankly blurry regardless,) while Alt-Right tends to reject the religious aspects or at least did initially.

 

With that said still most atheists are likely to be Left leaning, it’s just not as clear cut as it was 1-2 decades ago.

Edited December 12, 2020 by PoetheProgrammer

[MigL]

Have to agree with Phi.
This OP shows why 'labelling' people as left/right/ theist/atheist/anti-theist/etc. is the sloppiest form of generalization.

[swansont]

47 minutes ago, PoetheProgrammer said:

it’s such a common relation I’m surprised you’ve never heard of it.
http://feature.politicalresearch.org/whats-the-matter-with-secularism

https://www.vice.com/en/article/3k7jx8/too-many-atheists-are-veering-dangerously-toward-the-alt-right

https://www.rysec.org/event/atheism-and-the-alt-right/

Namely it’s a pretty straight forward path from the New Athiest Movement of the 2000s -> “Intellectual Athiesm” like Sam Harris -> Alt Right

I guess I disagree with how you used predecessor; to me that suggests one basically became the other with a large overlap of membership and purpose. The articles seem to agree that the alt-right founders were not prominent atheists, and the ones aligned with the alt-right are in the minority of the atheist movement. They’re atheists who just happen to be bigots, with that having little to do with their atheism.

I don’t find it all that surprising that one ideology that has a spectrum of ideas would have an overlap of adherents with another ideology that is largely orthogonal in its views. 

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

Have to agree with Phi.
This OP shows why 'labelling' people as left/right/ theist/atheist/anti-theist/etc. is the sloppiest form of generalization.

Indeed. The right in the US is often associated with being religious, and yet only about a quarter of liberals fall into categories I’d associate with atheism or agnosticism. It’s just that it’s only ~5% among conservatives

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/political-ideology/

And, of course, none of those groups are monolithic in their specific beliefs 

[Phi for All]

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

Have to agree with Phi.
This OP shows why 'labelling' people as left/right/ theist/atheist/anti-theist/etc. is the sloppiest form of generalization.

And compounding the mistake by pretending individual acts are part of a larger movement. The threat of -ists aggressively practicing their -isms is stifling anything that doesn't profit the right folks. 

I think one of the smartest things the US could do is commit to producing locally made solar panels to form a national electricity utility, and couple the effort with national wi-fi as well. Make it available everywhere we have a post office, dirt cheap, accessible to everyone. We all need the electricity and internet access, and even businesses would appreciate the lower costs. But suggest something that competes with a privately owned business, even if it's the smartest thing in the world, you're automatically a Socialist, which of course is just a Communist waiting to happen. 

This is the result of throwing the left under the bus.

[MigL]

I would have to agree again.
All those fields of Government subsidised corn in the Mid-West, which goes to make bio-diesel, could be better put to use as Government subsidised solar panel farms.
Why people 'see' one as Capitalist, and the other as Socialist ( or even Communist ), is totally down to the way it is spun by politicians ( for their own gain ).