Trump Pressures Raffensperger to Commit Fraud

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The only thing it really means is that the GOP cannot just block everything without consideration. The issue with the Dems is that at least in the past they did not vote en bloc as the GOP did (see the Obama years). Perhaps things are shifting, though during the impeachment proceedigns several House Dems voted against or abstained.

Yes, but the potential is there and symbollically it's good news. There's two or three swing voters on the Republican side isn't there... like Collins and Romney?

Edited January 6, 2021 by StringJunky

[iNow]

Depends on the issue being voted upon. As Charon mentioned, this is more about removing Mitch McConnells ability to singlehandedly block legislation even when it’s supported by both sides and the president. 

[Airbrush]

It should be easy to get a simple majority in the House to impeach Trump, but it will take 17 GOP senators for a supermajority,  to turn against Trump and convict him.  Are there 17 GOP senators willing to do this?

[iNow]

Unlikely... they've shown themselves to be rather spineless these last several years so I wouldn't hold out hope that they're willing to do anything other than lay low and run out the clock these last 2 weeks.

[Janus]

The 25th amendment would probably be a more likely scenario.  It require just a majority of the cabinet and Pence to initiate. (And apparently Pence is furious with Trump, and it has been discussed by some cabinet members*.)    Pence would then take over until the inauguration. While Trump could dispute it, the dispute would have to go to Congress where it would take a 2/3 majority to reject Trump's claim.  However, Pence would remain in charge until Congress reaches a decision, and the Democratically controlled House could delay the vote until the end of Trump's term anyway.

* And while this is mere speculation, I also wonder if they could just being using the mere threat as a "check" On Trump.  He went from egging his supporters on just before the attack( "We will never concede!"), to a weak response right after, even rejecting repeated requests for him to call in the National Guard to regain control(somebody eventually did, but it's not clear who), to a condemnation of the attackers and an acceptance that Biden will be sworn in,  all over a very short period.  Could it be that someone went to him and basically said, "We have the 25th amendment ready and loaded.  And while we'd rather not use it, If you continue to force our hand, we will."

[iNow]

Reporting suggests Pence is no interested in pursuing the 25th despite his anger at what's happened. I also find it interesting that already 2 members of Trumps cabinet have resigned, likely because they're too afraid to cast a vote if the 25th is employed. 

[StringJunky]

17 minutes ago, iNow said:

Reporting suggests Pence is no interested in pursuing the 25th despite his anger at what's happened. I also find it interesting that already 2 members of Trumps cabinet have resigned, likely because they're too afraid to cast a vote if the 25th is employed. 

Maybe he knows Trump and his allies will ask him to pardon him.

[iNow]

42 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Maybe he knows Trump and his allies will ask him to pardon him.

This thought crossed my mind, too. Good call out.

[StringJunky]

25 minutes ago, iNow said:

This thought crossed my mind, too. Good call out.

I think, given how close the 20th is, that door is best left closed. I can't handle any more excitement this side of the pond.

Edited January 8, 2021 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I think, given how close the 20th is, that door is best left closed. I can't handle any more excitement this side of the pond.

As per Janus's post, maybe keep the options ready and hopefully Trump manages to limp across the finish line without creating any more havoc.

OTOH Pelosi and company may be looking at impeaching him as early as Monday...I guess they believe he will be on his best behavior over the weekend.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/washington-dc-riots-trump-news-friday/index.html?tab=Impeachment Push

[J.C.MacSwell]

Anyone else hoping to breath a sigh of relief on the morning of Jan 21st?

[iNow]

15 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Anyone else hoping to breath a sigh of relief on the morning of Jan 21st?

Cautiously optimistic, even though our politics will remain toxic. 

One take I heard about all the impeachment / 25th amendment talk is how it may primarily be intended to pressure Trump into leaving voluntarily.

Basically, it remains an option which they’ll hold in their back pocket and can use at any time, but is mostly intended as a lever or nudge to get him to exit the office without a big fuss... paraphrased, “We’re not effing around anymore, dude. You WILL be leaving no matter what it takes.”

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

Cautiously optimistic, even though our politics will remain toxic. 

One take I heard about all the impeachment / 25th amendment talk is how it may primarily be intended to pressure Trump into leaving voluntarily.

Basically, it remains an option which they’ll hold in their back pocket and can use at any time, but is mostly intended as a lever or nudge to get him to exit the office without a big fuss... paraphrased, “We’re not effing around anymore, dude. You WILL be leaving no matter what it takes.”

They're in good company:

4 hours ago, Janus said:

* And while this is mere speculation, I also wonder if they could just being using the mere threat as a "check" On Trump.  He went from egging his supporters on just before the attack( "We will never concede!"), to a weak response right after, even rejecting repeated requests for him to call in the National Guard to regain control(somebody eventually did, but it's not clear who), to a condemnation of the attackers and an acceptance that Biden will be sworn in,  all over a very short period.  Could it be that someone went to him and basically said, "We have the 25th amendment ready and loaded.  And while we'd rather not use it, If you continue to force our hand, we will."

 

[iNow]

Doh! Totally missed that. Thx!

[Airbrush]

Does anyone think Trump can be charged with something related to his attack on the Capitol?  He incited it.  The penalties below do not take account for a murder taking place during the attack, a police officer was bashed to death with a fire extinguisher, and a woman was shot by a cop as she climbing menacingly thru a window inside the Capitol.

"A person who commits the following acts faces up to six months’ imprisonment and a $5,000 fine:

• 1 enters or remains on the floor or in the gallery of the U.S. Senate or House chambers without authorization
• 2 obstructs or impedes passage through or within the Capitol building or grounds
• 3 damages or destroys property in Capitol buildings or on Capitol grounds, or
• assaults an individual in a Capitol building or on Capitol grounds.

The penalties increase to a class E felony—punishable by up to five years in prison AND a $250,000 fine—for the following violations involving weapons, force, or violence:

1 carrying, having readily accessible, discharging, or transporting any firearm, dangerous weapon, or explosive on in Capitol buildings or on Capitol grounds, or

• 2 with force or violence, entering or remaining on the floor of either chamber."

Federal Trespassing Laws | CriminalDefenseLawyer.com

Trump was telling his supporters for several weeks to come to DC to overthrow election, and that "it's going to be wild!"

Wednesday morning Trump tells his crowd, in a rally near the White House to march to the Capitol building and "be strong" and that he was coming with them. Giuliani tells the same crowd to have "trial by combat." Trump then went home to watch it all on TV, amused.

Edited January 9, 2021 by Airbrush

[StringJunky]

22 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

Does anyone think Trump can be charged with something related to his attack on the Capitol?  He incited it.  The penalties below do not take account for a murder taking place during the attack, a police officer was bashed to death with a fire extinguisher, and a woman was shot by a cop as she climbing menacingly thru a window inside the Capitol.

"A person who commits the following acts faces up to six months’ imprisonment and a $5,000 fine:

• 1 enters or remains on the floor or in the gallery of the U.S. Senate or House chambers without authorization
• 2 obstructs or impedes passage through or within the Capitol building or grounds
• 3 damages or destroys property in Capitol buildings or on Capitol grounds, or
• assaults an individual in a Capitol building or on Capitol grounds.

The penalties increase to a class E felony—punishable by up to five years in prison AND a $250,000 fine—for the following violations involving weapons, force, or violence:

1 carrying, having readily accessible, discharging, or transporting any firearm, dangerous weapon, or explosive on in Capitol buildings or on Capitol grounds, or

• 2 with force or violence, entering or remaining on the floor of either chamber."

Federal Trespassing Laws | CriminalDefenseLawyer.com

Trump was telling his supporters for several weeks to come to DC to overthrow election, and that "it's going to be wild!"

Wednesday morning Trump tells his crowd, in a rally near the White House to march to the Capitol building and "be strong" and that he was coming with them. Giuliani tells the same crowd to have "trial by combat." Trump then went home to watch it all on TV, amused.

The House is considering 'inciting insurrection' for Trump, and the legal authorities, 'sedition' for the invading protesters. The penalties , respectively is a fine, ten years and being disallowed from holding any office, and a fine and 20 years for the protesters.

Edited January 9, 2021 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

15 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

Does anyone think Trump can be charged with something related to his attack on the Capitol?  He incited it. 

I don't see why not. He knew, or reasonably should have known, that what he was asking could only have been achieved by illegal force.

[iNow]

23 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

Does anyone think Trump can be charged with something related to his attack on the Capitol?  He incited it. 

Charles Manson never killed anyone himself. He’s in jail for inciting others to violence. Other than Trump being POTUS, is hard to find differences, especially in context of the cultish behavior 

[Janus]

13 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

Does anyone think Trump can be charged with something related to his attack on the Capitol?  He incited it.  The penalties below do not take account for a murder taking place during the attack, a police officer was bashed to death with a fire extinguisher, and a woman was shot by a cop as she climbing menacingly thru a window inside the Capitol.

"A person who commits the following acts faces up to six months’ imprisonment and a $5,000 fine:

• 1 enters or remains on the floor or in the gallery of the U.S. Senate or House chambers without authorization
• 2 obstructs or impedes passage through or within the Capitol building or grounds
• 3 damages or destroys property in Capitol buildings or on Capitol grounds, or
• assaults an individual in a Capitol building or on Capitol grounds.

The penalties increase to a class E felony—punishable by up to five years in prison AND a $250,000 fine—for the following violations involving weapons, force, or violence:

1 carrying, having readily accessible, discharging, or transporting any firearm, dangerous weapon, or explosive on in Capitol buildings or on Capitol grounds, or

• 2 with force or violence, entering or remaining on the floor of either chamber."

Federal Trespassing Laws | CriminalDefenseLawyer.com

Trump was telling his supporters for several weeks to come to DC to overthrow election, and that "it's going to be wild!"

Wednesday morning Trump tells his crowd, in a rally near the White House to march to the Capitol building and "be strong" and that he was coming with them. Giuliani tells the same crowd to have "trial by combat." Trump then went home to watch it all on TV, amused.

There are legal experts that say that the attack on the Capital building could be tried for sedition and that it is almost textbook case.  It has to do with the U.S. code on seditious conspiracy which, among other things, lists "or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,".    Since the intent was to stop congress form counting electoral votes as required by law, their acts pretty much fall under this.   If found guilty, they could face up to 20 yrs in prison.

[geordief]

Are they likely to roll up a conspiracy  that would actually and directly  link Trump or his close advisers to the main actors in this  action?

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 hours ago, Airbrush said:

 Trump then went home to watch it all on TV, amused.

Laugh at Trump if you must, but they'll be singing his praises for some time to come.

 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, geordief said:

Are they likely to roll up a conspiracy  that would actually and directly  link Trump or his close advisers to the main actors in this  action?

He gave a speech right to them, urging them on, after advertising the rally. How much of a link do you need?

[J.C.MacSwell]

19 minutes ago, swansont said:

He gave a speech right to them, urging them on, after advertising the rally. How much if a link do you need?

Wouldn't conspiracy imply planning it with them?

[Ken Fabian]

I think Trump's actions were criminal as well as dangerously irresponsible. In any nation where rule of law, truth and justice (and fair elections) are held up as their strengths and virtues, those holding relevant offices failing to address this behavior is... dangerously irresponsible. Possibly criminal in turn?

[Phi for All]

23 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Wouldn't conspiracy imply planning it with them?

Or at least agreeing to lead them on the march on the Capitol?