are trans lipids/oils definitely not usable in human body or is human body not able to break down trans lipids/oils?

[ahmet]

with a note before starting: I could not differentiate it well so this thread might either be considered in medical sciences or biology forum. sorry for the case.

hi,

I wonder whether trans lipids/oils usable in human body?

among the contexts,I know that not all of saturated lipids were trans , in trans lipids , hydrogen atoms are inversed at bond points.

and not all of saturated lipids / oils were useless. 

but do not really know anything about the certainty of information appearing in the thread. 

equivalently, can we say that once we obtain trans oils in known forms , then is that impossible to move away these lipids from the body up to death?

 

[CharonY]

If you are talking about trans fats, they are metabolized by the body as other fatty acids. 

[ahmet]

hi, yes trans fats. 

so, as we can say that metabolism consists of catabolism and anabolism , can we say that your this answer indicates that body could either produce (naturally) trans fats or break down them?

so this means ,YES human body can break down trans fats(?)

[John Cuthber]

If you are talking about saturated fats then you are not talking about trans fatty acids.

23 hours ago, ahmet said:

,I know that not all of saturated lipids were trans ,

No saturated lipid is trans, you can only get cis and trans isomers of unsaturated fats.

[ahmet]

35 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

If you are talking about saturated fats then you are not talking about trans fatty acids.

ah yes. trans fat is a form of unsaturated fat. thanks. 

And could you show me or explain: what is the difference between elaidic acid and oleic acid?

 

 

a notation: I saw one turkish professor speaking on tv channel , she was blaming trans fats and advising to avoid from them. (But why ,because charonY's reply indicates that body could break down trans fats.)

Edited January 9, 2021 by ahmet

[John Cuthber]

Do you understand the difference between cis and trans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis–trans_isomerism

Oleic acid is the cis isomer and elaidic  acid is the trans isomer

[joigus]

AFAIK, the problem about trans fats --for humans in particular-- is their high melting point. Because they --as John said-- have double bonds in the middle of the chain, they allow for hydrogen atoms to be either both on the same side (cis) or on opposite sides (trans), so that trans give rise to molecules that tend not to coil or bend so much. This results in straight chains that function pretty much as saturated fats when it comes to melting points.

 

Molecules that tend to coil act more "pointlike" than molecules that remain "straightened up", which is what qualitatively explains the difference in melting points. So they tend to clog more easily in your blood.

I'm not aware of metabolism having to do with other negative effects, but it could be.

Edited January 9, 2021 by joigus

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, joigus said:

AFAIK, the problem about trans fats --for humans in particular-- is their high melting point. Because they --as John said-- have double bonds in the middle of the chain, they allow for hydrogen atoms to be either both on the same side (cis) or on opposite sides (trans), so that trans give rise to molecules that tend not to coil or bend so much. This results in straight chains that function pretty much as saturated fats when it comes to melting points.

 

Molecules that tend to coil act more "pointlike" than molecules that remain "straightened up", which is what qualitatively explains the difference in melting points. So they tend to clog more easily in your blood.

I'm not aware of metabolism having to do with other negative effects, but it could be.

Actually the issue is a bit different. For the most part the issue of trans fats and there catabolic products can trigger a range of health effects. In many cases we are not entirely sure why. TFAs for example are often incompletely oxidized and potentially by inhibition of the required enzymes result in lowering polyunsaturated fatty acids, which in turn can result in lower membrane fluidity which kicks off a number of regulatory cascades that can result in poor health outcomes. They also result in the increase of LDL, and some decrease in HDL, which is associated with clogging (chronic inflammation resulting in atherosclerotic plaques for example).

[joigus]

7 hours ago, CharonY said:

Actually the issue is a bit different. For the most part the issue of trans fats and there catabolic products can trigger a range of health effects. In many cases we are not entirely sure why. TFAs for example are often incompletely oxidized and potentially by inhibition of the required enzymes result in lowering polyunsaturated fatty acids, which in turn can result in lower membrane fluidity which kicks off a number of regulatory cascades that can result in poor health outcomes. They also result in the increase of LDL, and some decrease in HDL, which is associated with clogging (chronic inflammation resulting in atherosclerotic plaques for example).

I see. Very interesting. The info that I had comes from an outdated source. Those were lectures from 8+ya --MIT Hazel Sive & also Graham Walker, which are on Youtube. What you tell me suggests that a lot of research has gone into studying them in much more detail. Thanks a lot.

It also suggests that TFAs are in part incorporated to the membrane after they're metabolized. Would that be correct?

[ahmet]

11 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Do you understand the difference between cis and trans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis–trans_isomerism

Oleic acid is the cis isomer and elaidic  acid is the trans isomer

As far as I remember (from high school) it is about geometry.

but...do not well what happens with these or do not know how these metabolised.

I shall check the link(s).

 

11 hours ago, joigus said:

 

 

 

actually ,I remember this from high school but,

what is the difference between these exactly? (seems same) 

Edited January 10, 2021 by ahmet

[joigus]

11 minutes ago, ahmet said:

As far as I remember (from high school) it is about geometry.

but...do not well what happens with these or do not know how these metabolised.

I shall check the link(s).

 

actually ,I remember this from high school but,

what is the difference between these exactly? (seems same) 

This image from Khan Academy is a bit more realistic:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/properties-of-carbon/hydrocarbon-structures-and-functional-groups/a/hydrocarbon-structures-and-isomers

The chain of, eg., -C-C- that is usually represented as a straight line, looks as a gentle zigzag, because the carbon atoms in the main chain are really tetrahedral, not linear. The double bonds make this effect of trans vs cis even more dramatic, as you see in the picture. So they differ considerably from the schematic representation. The effect of both hydrogen atoms being on the same side (cis) amounts to both atoms bending the molecular skeleton to the opposite side. 

The fatty functional group doesn't affect this feature much, unless they're sitting next to the double bond.

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, ahmet said:

what is the difference between these exactly? (seems same) 

In one case the two hydrogens (marked in red) are on the same side, in the other case they are on opposite sides.

 

 

[ahmet]

59 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

In one case the two hydrogens (marked in red) are on the same side, in the other case they are on opposite sides.

 

 

presumably this means that atoms have 3D placement. also @joigus 's comment.

And what about the use of these compounds (i.e. metabolism), how does body differentiate whether such compounds are not useful/usable (i.e. harmful) or vice versa?

note: I know or can accept that not everything could be classified as harmful things and vice versa , there might also be something like not harmful and not efficacious. But, here in turkey , generally medical doctors (professors) tend to say that trans fats were harmful. I am trying to understand the case.(implication).

from my particular master program notes, I also know that unsaturated acids were a necessity and efficacious. simply ,how and explanation for the opposing case?

13 hours ago, joigus said:

AFAIK, the problem about trans fats --for humans in particular-- is their high melting point. Because they --as John said-- have double bonds in the middle of the chain, they allow for hydrogen atoms to be either both on the same side (cis) or on opposite sides (trans), so that trans give rise to molecules that tend not to coil or bend so much. This results in straight chains that function pretty much as saturated fats when it comes to melting points.

 

Molecules that tend to coil act more "pointlike" than molecules that remain "straightened up", which is what qualitatively explains the difference in melting points. So they tend to clog more easily in your blood.

I'm not aware of metabolism having to do with other negative effects, but it could be.

from this comment ,I understand that trans fats' melting point is high. they tend to clog the veins. So ,problems are occuring in the mechanism. 

is this the consistence really?

and does this show also that , they were not needed in fact?

another question:

 

I think we do not know or previously define how the compounds act,right?

for instance ,here we know that unsaturated two forms have same formula, but because of their geometrical placement they are not same. 

one of them has tendency to be harmful while another one is efficacious and needed. 

but, in fact, we can only realise this after observation and experiments (I know that this detail is already known about TFAs)

otherwise, it cannot be said whether a compound was previously harmful or efficacious (before it created and used (i.e. experiments and observations)

all in all,I am again not sure really. bacause some scientific criteria might illuminate the way. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by ahmet

[joigus]

19 minutes ago, ahmet said:

But, here in turkey , generally medical doctors (professors) tend to say that trans fats were harmful. I am trying to understand the case.(implication).

AFAIK, trans fats are known to be harmful on a number of levels. I'm here really to kindle conversation from the experts and learn more. Take everything I say with a grain of salt.  

Those studies that I remember mostly showed correlations between trans-fats and atheroschlerosis or cancer. Then I learnt from the MIT courses that part of the problem was the shape of the molecules affecting the melting point. What @CharonY says suggests that more research has further clarified the metabolic connections at the molecular level, which I think is very interesting.

[ahmet]

11 hours ago, CharonY said:

In many cases we are not entirely sure why.

ok ✔️