empleat Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 I don't understand you guys - how don't you have extreme depression?! This is not completely true. I sorta do, 86% of population is religions, people have innate defensive mechanisms. And most of people have positive illusions and don't see the world: how it truly is! And lie to themselves. Fact is - life is hell!!! https://aeon.co/essays/the-voice-of-sadness-is-censored-as-sick-what-if-its-sane I am troubled by this idea of Eternal Return long time. Read spoiler for more info: I am warning you - Extremely depressive (no human being should ever know about this) read for you own risk!!! E.g. Nihilism is not a choice, or philosophy, it simply arrives! This is similar, you may have defense mechanisms right now, but even thinking about this can totally change you forever! Even if you already knew about it, I don't think most people fully realize/admit consequences... Spoiler - We could be re-living same lives over and over, if you die painfully, you will have to suffer that terrible death forever in a loop!!! - In next aeon, initial conditions could be slightly different: we could be re-living every permutation forever. Every death and torture possible forever in a loop!!! I don't think there is an escape!!! Everything is either pre-determined, or random from current understanding of Natural Sciences. Could there be 3rd option? Maybe, but I can't even imagine what it could be... Either everything has a reason, or it doesn't and we say: it is random! I can't think of anything else... I don't know what could anyone possibly do to end this hell???!!! If I could transform myself into energy, problem is energy can be transformed back to matter. I am not expert on Physics, but nevertheless from what I read. It seems like there is no escape - eternal hell... I realize: we don't know that for sure, there is hope! But even possibility of this is pure terror! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 27 minutes ago, empleat said: I am not expert on Physics, but nevertheless from what I read. It seems like there is no escape - eternal hell... I realize: we don't know that for sure, there is hope! You're not an expert in this, so you could be wrong. Nothing like what you describe can be substantiated. It seems like there's no escape, but you're not an expert in this, so you could be wrong. You don't know that for sure, so there is hope, right? It seems like you've destroyed your reason to be depressed. Good reasoning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empleat Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Phi for All said: You're not an expert in this, so you could be wrong. Nothing like what you describe can be substantiated. It seems like there's no escape, but you're not an expert in this, so you could be wrong. You don't know that for sure, so there is hope, right? It seems like you've destroyed your reason to be depressed. Good reasoning! Thanks for trying to cheer me up, but I am unfortunately too of a logical person for this to work. And I know: this is simply not true... I COULD BE WRONG AND I MIGHT AS WELL BE RIGHT! AS IT IS NOT PROOVABLE, BUT ALSO IRREFUTABLE! WE DON'T KNOW IF IT IS TRUE, OR NOT!!! WE DON'T KNOW!!! WE DON'T KNOW!!! WE JUST DON'T KNOW... WARNING: NO PERSON SHOULD EVER KNOW THIS: Spoiler And there are some theories like Conformal Cyclic Cosmology, that even presume that universe repeats itself forever! Yes this is incredibly complicated subject and theory is more likely to be wrong, than right! But still: it might be possible!!! That is the scary thing! Only reason I even replied, because perhaps some genius have some idea: how to escape this terrible HELL!!! But I doubt it! If we changed that: why Am I still here??? And by continuing living: you may risk - you will be dying painfully in a loop forever! That is: if we were re-living same lives over and over. It leads to an obvious conclusion! I don't know, if I can talk about this here. But I not su..... at least it is not imminent. So don't worry... And I have a psychotherapist... Although if we are re-living every permutation over and over, even that wouldn't help!!! If there is no escape! But if we are re-living same lives over and over, that could be an escape from eternal suffering!!! What could one person do anyways, everyone would have to work only on this goal and still... Also if we are re-living every permutation over and over and if there was an escape, we would eventually find it. But maybe we would have to suffer countless deaths and tortures before so!!! So by dying this life, I could be throwing away a very unlikely chance to end it now, but at the same time possibly condemning myself to trillions of years long torturous suffering. Which is probably coming anyways, if this is true!!! And if there is no escape and we are re-living every permutation over and over - this is my worst nightmare!!! Literal HELL and absolute suffering!!! I can't even fully imagine this, nor comprehend this! Sooooo depressing!!! Also some interpretations of Physics suggests: that past and future exists all at the same time and difference between past and future is just an illusion. Everything is either pre-determined, or random. And we have no control of that! So my past isn't really gone! It is just some mind-boggling effect of quantum entanglement, that we can experience the time flow! So I doubt, even after I die: I will be gone forever, I might be instantly born again... Also I already knew about Free Will being false on 99.9%. I don't like the picture, which is being painted here... Or we could be living in a simulation, this is also one of my worst nightmares... This is so unimaginably terrible, that I don't have better word for it, than based definition of HELL!!! Also it is so terrible, that not many people will admit it. It is utterly terrible of a realization: that people which have defensive mechanisms will just suppress it, or lie to themselves... Otherwise they wouldn't survive!!! I hate myself for seeing things how they are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, empleat said: Thanks for trying to cheer me up, but I am unfortunately too of a logical person for this to work. And I know: this is simply not true... I can't help if you won't even listen to yourself. One minute you say it might not be true, the next you're convinced it's not. You are NOT behaving like a logical person. If I believed in hell, this is exactly what it would be like, the prisoners torturing themselves in their own minds over imagined sins with no real resolutions. I recommend you spend no more time there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empleat Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Phi for All said: I can't help if you won't even listen to yourself. One minute you say it might not be true, the next you're convinced it's not. You are NOT behaving like a logical person. If I believed in hell, this is exactly what it would be like, the prisoners torturing themselves in their own minds over imagined sins with no real resolutions. I recommend you spend no more time there. What? I never said that! I meant: what you said is simply not true! Maybe I should have been more specific, since you don't understand. But I thought: you simply wanted to cheer me up, by making it sound like it is not true, or something... Spoiler 4 hours ago, empleat said: 4 hours ago, empleat said: - We could be re-living same lives over and over, if you die painfully, you will have to suffer that terrible death forever in a loop!!! - In next aeon, initial conditions could be slightly different: we could be re-living every permutation forever. Every death and torture possible forever in a loop!!! Which implies a possibility! I never said that it is not true! Or it is true! At least if my memory is not failing me. I said: even possibility of it being true is hell and that's it! Because what if it is true??? Edited January 12, 2021 by empleat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 ! Moderator Note This has little to do with the physics discussion. Split Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empleat Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 13 hours ago, swansont said: ! Moderator Note This has little to do with the physics discussion. Split To clarify: only reason I even answered to that topic... was to ask: if anyone could do anything to escape this! But I highly doubt it... It was not philosophical! I just wanted to know (this would be highly theoretical) if there is possibly an escape!!! For example: energy doesn't experience time! But even if you made yourself into energy: it wouldn't help necessarily, because energy can be turned back into matter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Watch out for that term "energy." It's a specific thing in physics, but is also a term used by woo woo warriors who believe in hippy dippy nonsense. You spoke of energy being turned "back" into matter, for example. That suggests you don't understand that... exactly as Einstein's famous equation demonstrates.... matter IS energy... they are equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, iNow said: Watch out for that term "energy." It's a specific thing in physics, but is also a term used by woo woo warriors who believe in hippy dippy nonsense. You spoke of energy being turned "back" into matter, for example. That suggests you don't understand that... exactly as Einstein's famous equation demonstrates.... matter IS energy... they are equal. No, actually, and this is a common error. The m in E = mc^2 (and related equations) is mass, meaning mass is a form of energy. Mass is a property of matter, but mass and matter are not the same thing. I agree with the "woo woo" assessment, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Derp... I'm gonna go get another cup of coffee, because I actually knew that before I typed! Thanks for the correction, sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empleat Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, iNow said: Watch out for that term "energy." It's a specific thing in physics, but is also a term used by woo woo warriors who believe in hippy dippy nonsense. You spoke of energy being turned "back" into matter, for example. That suggests you don't understand that... exactly as Einstein's famous equation demonstrates.... matter IS energy... they are equal. I knew about energy and matter being essentially the same thing. I don't know enough about subject to formally describe it. And why distinction is even made, if that is so... Point is: that light does not experience time! I don't know exactly why! But if matter equals energy, then particles are energy. Yet there is a distinction! Light e.g. is said: to not experience time. I don't remember, if this can be said only about light, or same is true about energy. That's why I asked! I read only matter can experience time. But how is that so: if matter equals energy? Edited January 13, 2021 by empleat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, empleat said: that light does not experience time! I don't know exactly why! Because light can never be at rest. By definition it always moves at "the speed of light," and thus it does not have a valid reference frame. A valid reference frame (at rest relative to something else) is required for the experience of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 1 minute ago, empleat said: I knew about energy and matter being essentially the same thing. I don't know enough about subject to formally describe it. And why distinction is even made, if that is so... Point is: that light does not experience time! I don't know exactly why! Light isn't in an inertial frame of reference, so we can't use our physics to describe what happens to light from its point of view. But in our frame, light experiences time - e.g. it takes ~ 8.33 minutes for light to get to us from the sun 1 minute ago, empleat said: But if matter equals energy, then particles are energy. Yet there is a distinction! Light e.g. is said: to not experience time. I don't remember, if this can be said only about light, or same is true about energy. That's why I asked! I read only matter can experience time. But how is that so: if matter equals energy? As I pointed out before, the equivalence is mass and energy. "matter equals energy" is an untrue statement, so your question is moot. Massless particles travel at c and we don't have physics that explains what happens from their point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empleat Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 38 minutes ago, swansont said: Light isn't in an inertial frame of reference, so we can't use our physics to describe what happens to light from its point of view. But in our frame, light experiences time - e.g. it takes ~ 8.33 minutes for light to get to us from the sun So that means, we don't know if light experiences time? 39 minutes ago, swansont said: As I pointed out before, the equivalence is mass and energy. "matter equals energy" is an untrue statement, so your question is moot. Sorry, I can't believe myself, that I wrote matter again What is then distinction between matter and energy? Ultimate question was: is there anything, we could ever do to stop eternal recurrence? Or avoid experiencing time? Also even light can be turned into heat energy and then it could experience time - don't know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Just now, empleat said: So that means, we don't know if light experiences time? Physics doesn't have a way to test any proposition along these lines. Just now, empleat said: Sorry, I can't believe myself, that I wrote matter again What is then distinction between matter and energy? Mass and energy are properties of the particles/substances under description. Matter describes most but not all of what we find around us. Things that have mass and take up space are matter (fermions, which can't occupy the same space, are matter) Photons, being massless bosons, are not considered to be matter. Just now, empleat said: Ultimate question was: is there anything, we could ever do to stop eternal recurrence? Or avoid experiencing time? Also even light can be turned into heat energy and then it could experience time - don't know! Energy isn't s substance, so this is an incorrect assessment. Also, light can be heat. It depends on where it originated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empleat Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 But is there anything possibly anyone could do to avoid eternal recurrence? Even highly theoretically, because probably there isn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 17 minutes ago, empleat said: But is there anything possibly anyone could do to avoid eternal recurrence? Even highly theoretically, because probably there isn't! Write a note to yourself that says, "Eternal recurrence is NOT TRUE!", and put it in your pocket. Check your pocket the next day, and if it's still there, you'll know it's not a false statement, because if it was, you would have found that in your pocket the last iteration of the universe. You didn't, so eternal recurrence is not a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empleat Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Phi for All said: Write a note to yourself that says, "Eternal recurrence is NOT TRUE!", and put it in your pocket. Check your pocket the next day, and if it's still there, you'll know it's not a false statement Wait what? 5 minutes ago, Phi for All said: because if it was, you would have found that in your pocket the last iteration of the universe. I am not sure where you are heading with this... Not before I wrote it and put it there. And how would I even know, if I found that in last iteration of the universe? Edited January 13, 2021 by empleat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 1 minute ago, empleat said: Wait what? I am not sure where you are heading with this... Not before I wrote it and put it there. And how would I even know, if I found that in last iteration of the universe? Yours is an irrational stance, so I was trying to help in a like manner. I have nothing more constructive to offer you, other than sympathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empleat Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 32 minutes ago, Phi for All said: Yours is an irrational stance, so I was trying to help in a like manner. I have nothing more constructive to offer you, other than sympathy. Hahaha. How is it irrational??? Even Nietzsche engaged in this idea. We simply don't know that. Prove it is irrational... I mean: I appreciate it. But what you said doesn't disprove eternal return! Or explain how so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 I thought this looked strangely familiar: https://thescienceforum.org/eternal-return-and-stable-time-loop-t3041.html#p40835 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 42 minutes ago, empleat said: Hahaha. How is it irrational??? Even Nietzsche engaged in this idea. We simply don't know that. Prove it is irrational... I mean: I appreciate it. But what you said doesn't disprove eternal return! Or explain how so! The idea isn't irrational. The way you torture yourself by focusing on this explanation alone is irrational. The way you phrase it, you're creating a problem in such a way that it can't be resolved. You're an unending skeptic, which is NOT the way to be in science. Either decide one way or the other based on the preponderance of evidence, or simply admit you can't know. You're in a loop of illogic. You've painted yourself into a corner with no escape. You're doing all this to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Worrying about unanswerable futures is a waste of the present, and that is the only part that matters. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empleat Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 Spoiler I agree: what are the odds, that it is this way, from all possible scenarios? Should I be worried by some remote possibility? No! Because it doesn't help anything! But even so, I fully realize the consequences, if eternal return is true!!! I don't really want to subject myself to this! So why to risk it? It is not like: I have anything to gain by living. I mean why would you want to risk it? People are downplaying this soo much! I nearly died, while I didn't have it nearly as bad, as the guy from that thread! I know all about pain and torture! I am not naive, I saw it all from TV Shows and reading. Even I don't look for it on purpose. Also time doesn't go anywhere says: some interpretations of Physics, past and future possibly exist all at the same time as block space! So after I die, I will still possibly exist in the past! Also energy and matter, it can't be created, or destroyed! It can only change a form. Which is scary! It is not like we can do anything. People wouldn't believe it, or whole humanity wouldn't work only on this for purpose of ending it! And if we are re-living multiple lives over and over, even if you kill yourself and waste time, which could be allocated for trying to find an escape. If there is an escape: eventually you would find it anyways, even possibly after trillions of years of suffering. But if we are re-living same lives over and over and there is no escape!!! And you die painfully during this life, you will have to re-live it forever!!! So like who would want be the one, staying alive trying to find it? If he risks eternal suffering?! So most optimal option is to commit su..... anyways... Although lets say there is a god, which puts people to hell for su..... Even I don't believe in god! That's the reason: why I am so depressed, because I am possibly done, no matter what I do!!! And I have no way of knowing, if there is an escape and what option would that be! If there was suffering and you could change it, that would be yet somehow reasonable. But this is just extreme, it is HELL!!! Anyways life is pointless, you don't have even Free Will. It is like a bad joke... I wanted to do same thing, even before this... Nor you say anything what could be done, so there is nothing else to discuss I guess. Thanks anyways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, empleat said: Hide contents I agree: what are the odds, that it is this way, from all possible scenarios? Should I be worried by some remote possibility? No! Because it doesn't help anything! But even so, I fully realize the consequences, if eternal return is true!!! I don't really want to subject myself to this! So why to risk it? It is not like: I have anything to gain by living. I mean why would you want to risk it? People are downplaying this soo much! I nearly died, while I didn't have it nearly as bad, as the guy from that thread! I know all about pain and torture! I am not naive, I saw it all from TV Shows and reading. Even I don't look for it on purpose. Also time doesn't go anywhere says: some interpretations of Physics, past and future possibly exist all at the same time as block space! So after I die, I will still possibly exist in the past! Also energy and matter, it can't be created, or destroyed! It can only change a form. Which is scary! It is not like we can do anything. People wouldn't believe it, or whole humanity wouldn't work only on this for purpose of ending it! And if we are re-living multiple lives over and over, even if you kill yourself and waste time, which could be allocated for trying to find an escape. If there is an escape: eventually you would find it anyways, even possibly after trillions of years of suffering. But if we are re-living same lives over and over and there is no escape!!! And you die painfully during this life, you will have to re-live it forever!!! So like who would want be the one, staying alive trying to find it? If he risks eternal suffering?! So most optimal option is to commit su..... anyways... Although lets say there is a god, which puts people to hell for su..... Even I don't believe in god! That's the reason: why I am so depressed, because I am possibly done, no matter what I do!!! And I have no way of knowing, if there is an escape and what option would that be! If there was suffering and you could change it, that would be yet somehow reasonable. But this is just extreme, it is HELL!!! Anyways life is pointless, you don't have even Free Will. It is like a bad joke... I wanted to do same thing, even before this... Nor you say anything what could be done, so there is nothing else to discuss I guess. Thanks anyways... Why not just stop thinking about it and say "It is out of my hands and what will be, will be." That's pretty much how I handle anxieties that I feel I have no control over. Edited January 13, 2021 by StringJunky 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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