Minimum wage/BUI (split from Immigration)

[dimreepr]

Just now, Curious layman said:

Relax, just a bit of humour Mr cryptic. Apologies.

No worries' we both need to include a 😊 once in a while...

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

States can surely adjust minimums above the federal floor, but the federal floor is needed to address the national economy on the whole. The unit of measure here is the USA, not “Alabama.” Opinions may differ here, but I believe it’s unhealthy and uncompetitive globally to treat each state as its own little country or fiefdom not subject to federal standards or minimums. 

Using this argument works for the current minimum wage...or raising it to $10...or $15 or more...but the bolded part significantly diminishes the higher the floor is raised. A "made for median" America policy leaves much of America with a higher than optimum floor locally, and removes the economic tool to adjust it.

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

but the bolded part significantly diminishes the higher the floor is raised.

And that’s completely expected since it also significantly diminishes the need to do so

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

And that’s completely expected since it also significantly diminishes the need to do so

Right. Something centralized government proponents don't worry about. They know what's best for everyone.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Right. Something centralized government proponents don't worry about. They know what's best for everyone.

Do you?

The minimum wage is like arguing over the price of bread, when one owns a bakery...

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Do you?

No. But I have a somewhat informed opinion that the Federal minimum wage should be raised above $7,25 an hour but no where near $15 under present circumstances, and that a cautious approach would leave states with more abilIty to adjust for their own....whereas a bold approach can add significant economic risks to some areas while really having no effect on others.

California's minimum wage is currently $14/hr. All lesser paying jobs are already underground. Big whoop for them if they get mandated $15. They'll probably have $15 soon anyway and enjoy the right to make it so. Whether they get it exactly right or not, at least they'll be able to adjust it taking their own state circumstances into account. 

A raise to $15 Federal minimum would seem less "crammed down from above" for them.

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

No. But I have a somewhat informed opinion that the Federal minimum wage should be raised above $7,25 an hour but no where near $15 under present circumstances, and that a cautious approach would leave states with more abilIty to adjust for their own....whereas a bold approach can add significant economic risks to some areas while really having no effect on others.

California's minimum wage is currently $14/hr. All lesser paying jobs are already underground. Big whoop for them if they get mandated $15. They'll probably have $15 soon anyway and enjoy the right to make it so. Whether they get it exactly right or not, at least they'll be able to adjust it taking their own state circumstances into account. 

Does it make more sense to push the authority to set wages to an entity even lower than state level? I understand why you think state level is better than federal level, but wouldn't municipality level be even better than state level? Certainly conditions in NYC are different than in Schenectady, NY.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

No. But I have a somewhat informed opinion that the Federal minimum wage should be raised above $7,25 an hour but no where near $15 under present circumstances, and that a cautious approach would leave states with more abilIty to adjust for their own....whereas a bold approach can add significant economic risks to some areas while really having no effect on others.

California's minimum wage is currently $14/hr. All lesser paying jobs are already underground. Big whoop for them if they get mandated $15. They'll probably have $15 soon anyway and enjoy the right to make it so. Whether they get it exactly right or not, at least they'll be able to adjust it taking their own state circumstances into account. 

All I care about is, can I eat tomorrow? 

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Does it make more sense to push the authority to set wages to an entity even lower than state level? I understand why you think state level is better than federal level, but wouldn't municipality level be even better than state level? Certainly conditions in NYC are different than in Schenectady, NY.

Possibly. It may be appropriate for some areas or municipalities to set their own.

States though, can mandate different levels for different areas within their state if they choose to do so... somewhat centralized but an intermediate approach.

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Possibly. It may be appropriate for some areas or municipalities to set their own.

States though, can mandate different levels for different areas within their state if they choose to do so... somewhat centralized but an intermediate approach.

My biggest problems with all levels of government is that they are composed of people who too often have 'agendas'.

For example in FL the governor Ron DeSantis didn't want the Federal Government to mandate masks on his state, but then he banned localities from enforcing their own mask mandates. He didn't want to be pushed around but was happy to push others around.

Similarly letting the states set their own 'lowest' minimum wages would allow them to impose their way on municipalities, just as the Federal Government attempts to impose their way on the states.

It seems like all we ever do is try to find the best of the myriad of bad governing models.

[Curious layman]

Sorry if you've already discussed this and I've missed it, 

but would it not be better to base the minimum wage on how many hours you need to work to pay the bills. So instead of $15 an hour, make it 15 hours work to earn the median rent etc?

[iNow]

7 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

Sorry if you've already discussed this and I've missed it, 

but would it not be better to base the minimum wage on how many hours you need to work to pay the bills. So instead of $15 an hour, make it 15 hours work to earn the median rent etc?

This is an interesting and pretty good idea, but not much different from JCMs proposal that the minimum wage ought to vary by region.

I haven’t thought deeply about it, but my initial concern is it would lock people into the same one locale. Sure, maybe making $9/hr is fine in Alabama, but doing so means I can never really scrape by and save enough to go somewhere else in the country outside of Alabama. It’s enough to subsist where I am, but not enough to thrive or explore new lands.

I’m not certain this criticism has merit, btw. It’s just an initial thought and requires more thinking on my part. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

53 minutes ago, zapatos said:

My biggest problems with all levels of government is that they are composed of people who too often have 'agendas'.

For example in FL the governor Ron DeSantis didn't want the Federal Government to mandate masks on his state, but then he banned localities from enforcing their own mask mandates. He didn't want to be pushed around but was happy to push others around.

Similarly letting the states set their own 'lowest' minimum wages would allow them to impose their way on municipalities, just as the Federal Government attempts to impose their way on the states.

It seems like all we ever do is try to find the best of the myriad of bad governing models.

By scale, DeSantis should be more accountable to those municipalities than Biden would be.

Our Province here in Nova Scotia mandated masks for indoor public places generally, but divided the province into zones for what they considered appropriate levels of restrictions for the different zones at different times depending on outbreak levels. So far we have done relatively well, though much of it is due to geographical isolation and "isolationability".

Not perfect, but I don't think it would have worked as well if the restrictions were controlled by the Federal Government, whether by a one size fits all approach or controlling a similar system from Ottawa.

[CharonY]

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

By scale, DeSantis should be more accountable to those municipalities than Biden would be.

Our Province here in Nova Scotia mandated masks for indoor public places generally, but divided the province into zones for what they considered appropriate levels of restrictions for the different zones at different times depending on outbreak levels. So far we have done relatively well, though much of it is due to geographical isolation and "isolationability".

Not perfect, but I don't think it would have worked as well if the restrictions were controlled by the Federal Government, whether by a one size fits all approach or controlling a similar system from Ottawa.

It is going to be off-topic a bit, but I think COVID-19 is not a good case. While you could state that a decentralized approach has been good for Nova Scotia, the precise opposite can be said about, say Quebec. An actual comparison would need to be done between countries with decentralized vs centralized approaches and recent reviews from Canadian researchers (e.g. Hansen and Amelie, 2020 JMIR Pub Health Surveill). Showed that the decentralized Canadian approach resulted in worse outcomes compared to countries with a stronger, centralized strategy, even if they had worse infrastructure and other issues to deal with.

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

It is going to be off-topic a bit, but I think COVID-19 is not a good case. While you could state that a decentralized approach has been good for Nova Scotia, the precise opposite can be said about, say Quebec. An actual comparison would need to be done between countries with decentralized vs centralized approaches and recent reviews from Canadian researchers (e.g. Hansen and Amelie, 2020 JMIR Pub Health Surveill). Showed that the decentralized Canadian approach resulted in worse outcomes compared to countries with a stronger, centralized strategy, even if they had worse infrastructure and other issues to deal with.

It is getting a little bit, but whether for Covid, minimum wage, or other issues I think there are aspects best left to different levels of government, in whole or in part.

It still requires good decision making. Quebec is not a good example of leadership, or populace, making exceptionally good ones consistently and overall, but I'm not sure having Ottawa make decisions for them would have made for better outcomes...and in similar respect I don't think D.C. deciding the minimum wage for Alabama, by in fact more than doubling it, is a healthy way to go.

 

[CharonY]

18 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It still requires good decision making.

I think that is the crux of the matter. If everyone would make perfect decisions, it would not matter on which level things are done. But whether a centralized or decentralized approach works better depends on the likelihood of bad decisions along the way (and their respective impact) as well as structural limitations, such as e.g. level of coordination required. For disease outbreaks decentralized responses tend to be result in worse outcomes as a lot of coordination is required, ranging from building supply chains for e.g. testing and PPEs, travel restrictions (including between provinces) contact tracing and so on. 

Now, the big question here is whether that also applies to minimum wage.

[J.C.MacSwell]

35 minutes ago, CharonY said:

 

Now, the big question here is whether that also applies to minimum wage.

Why would it not?

I can understand some aspects of setting a Federal minimum, which would be well below any median or average state need. Why instead set one considerably higher?

[iNow]

46 minutes ago, CharonY said:

For disease outbreaks decentralized responses tend to be result in worse outcomes as a lot of coordination is required, ranging from building supply chains for e.g. testing and PPEs, travel restrictions (including between provinces) contact tracing and so on. 

Now, the big question here is whether that also applies to minimum wage.

It does. In this case, poverty is the disease we’re seeking to eradicate. It strains every layer of the system, too.

It results in lower tax revenues and thus fewer public services for those who need them most. It results in lower revenues for businesses so they can’t hire as many people or franchise to new locations and expand. It adds to criminal activity as people turn to the black market and to illegal actions just to help make ends meet. That then strains the prison system which exacerbates the poverty directly and indirectly, it splits up families, and spreads the disease to future generations. 

A minimum wage that hasn’t kept up with inflation and which results in families working 3 jobs and still unable to succeed is a type of virus. Offering services to help those in need is like wearing a mask. Raising the minim wage at the federal level is like a vaccine that’s much more likely to be much more effective at helping us get closer to herd immunity. 

[dimreepr]

On 3/7/2021 at 2:27 AM, iNow said:

A minimum wage that hasn’t kept up with inflation and which results in families working 3 jobs and still unable to succeed is a type of virus. Offering services to help those in need is like wearing a mask. Raising the minim wage at the federal level is like a vaccine that’s much more likely to be much more effective at helping us get closer to herd immunity. 

It can't reach me here, I'm so far removed from the filth and squalor; and then suddenly the bin men don't turn up...