A very tough (and possibly controversial) poll about sexual abuse and rape

[zapatos]

33 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

What do you want me to do, secretly film my work colleagues talking about it, then post it here.

When they said “should be automatically 100% believed without doubt.” did you laugh and tell them that was an asinine position?

[Curious layman]

17 minutes ago, zapatos said:

When they said “should be automatically 100% believed without doubt.” did you laugh and tell them that was an asinine position?

Um, no. 

I've had conversations about and heard on radio about how rape victims are treated in court by over aggressive barristers. Part of the conversation on several occasions has discussed whether it would be better, for the women, to be presumed to be telling the truth instead of being a liar, which seems to be the current approach by the police.

Theres always someone who rings in or posts an opinion favouring the extreme point of view. Nobody's saying this is an official line or something thats being discussed by politicians, it isn't, it's just a topic that rears it head now and again.

[iNow]

6 hours ago, tim.tdj said:

I have seen in the media that some people are saying that alleged victims of sexual abuse and rape should be automatically 100% believed without doubt.

Still awaiting even a single citation which confirms your premise as valid. 

[Curious layman]

15 minutes ago, iNow said:

Still awaiting even a single citation which confirms your premise as valid. 

To be fair, it says "some people"

I think the problem is that the 'some people' are members of the general public or the extreme part of the me too movement. That's my experience.

There probably having there views published to sell papers or make the debate more lively. 

In the U.K. The serious discussion is about removing jurors, and allowing the accuser to remain anonymous.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Curious layman

[iNow]

7 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

To be fair, it says "some people"

To be fair, I’d like to know which people specifically, especially since it underlies this entire thread and it’s ridiculous poll

I’m a fair man, though. Let me make my point another way by asking a simple and rather straight forward question. 

Out of every million times a woman comes forward about being sexually harassed, abused, or assaulted, precisely how many of those million are you saying represent contrived accusations, lies, and falsehoods?

Edited January 19, 2021 by iNow

[Curious layman]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

To be fair, I’d like to know which people specifically, especially since it underlies this entire thread and it’s ridiculous poll

Yeah that poll was pretty f**king grim.

You're right, it's not a subject matter to be vague with. And I'll admit, the people I know with the view posted in the OP have mainly been educated by memes. 

[iNow]

Plz note my edit made while you were composing your reply 

[Curious layman]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Plz note my edit made while you were composing your reply 

I believe what the experts say, about 2-7%.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression you think my view is this,

'You can't assume the woman is automatically innocent because of how many of them are lying'

It's not, the footballer story was just the same type of story that others had mentioned, so I mentioned one. 

[iNow]

8 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

I believe what the experts say, about 2-7%.

Which experts? Got a link?

8 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression you think my view is this,

'You can't assume the woman is automatically innocent because of how many of them are lying'

This isn’t jazz. Stop focusing on the notes I don’t play and read the words I do. 

Maybe try answering the actual GD questions I’m asking instead of dancing around them and evading. You either have a valid point that’s supportable or you’re inventing fictions and arguing a personal opinion. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by iNow

[Curious layman]

Everyday feminism said it. 

Heres are better more reliable link which has about the same, 2-10%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

 

1 hour ago, iNow said:

 

Out of every million times a woman comes forward about being sexually harassed, abused, or assaulted, precisely how many of those million are you saying represent contrived accusations, lies, and falsehoods?

Edited 1 hour ago by iNow

You're coming across like you think I believe the number is really high. I don't and haven't said I do. I just said that I've heard people discussing this in various forms and mentioned something about a football player. That's it. 

 

[iNow]

1 minute ago, Curious layman said:

Heres are better more reliable link which has about the same, 2-10%

Why are you conflating rape with sexual harassment and assault?

2 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

You're coming across like you think I believe the number is really high. I don't

So what... like 2 in a million? Maybe 10? 1,604? Maybe 292,153 in a million?

I really don’t know what you think because you’re being extremely unclear and quickly retreating from essentially all of your posts when even gently challenged to support them with anything more than scat from a bull. 

[Curious layman]

18 minutes ago, iNow said:

Why are you conflating rape with sexual harassment and assault?

I'm not. The OP is about rape.

there about the same anyway. 2-6%

http://www.open.ac.uk/research/news/false-accusations-sexual-violence

 

18 minutes ago, iNow said:

Why are you conflating rape with sexual harassment and assault?

So what... like 2 in a million? Maybe 10? 1,604? Maybe 292,153 in a million?

I really don’t know what you think because you’re being extremely unclear and quickly retreating from essentially all of your posts when even gently challenged to support them with anything more than scat from a bull. 

Between 2-6% of a million, what the experts say, what's the problem here?

I've retreated from none of my posts. Why would I need to retreat. From what? 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Curious layman

[iNow]

13 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

there about the same anyway. 2-6%

From your link:

Quote

It’s important to recognise that even official statistics on false reporting can and have been inflated by other factors. Sometimes police record cases as “no crime” or “unfounded”. This can happen when it’s difficult to attain sufficient corroborating evidence. There is, however, a big difference between the inability to demonstrate in court that an offence has happened and claiming that these cases are false. These sorts of cases have nevertheless been conflated with false allegations.

False allegations have also been conflated with other kinds sexual violence complaints that have been logged as “no crime”. For example, sometimes people contact the police because they are worried that a crime might have been committed. Sometimes these concerns are raised with the police by a third party (a friend, relative or partner). Sometimes people contact the police because they have no memory of a period of time and are worried something may have been done to them. 
<...>
research suggests that the majority of false claims do not name an alleged perpetrator – they’re more likely to be relatively vague accusations about a stranger. False allegations also tend to be identified very early on in the investigative process, often by an admission from the complainant. Given this, the widespread concern that false allegations are rife, that they damage the life and reputation of the innocent, is often a red herring

No offense bud, but you’re really making this too easy for me. 

[Curious layman]

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

From your link:

No offense bud, but you’re really making this too easy for me. 

Making what easy, what the fuck you going on about? What am I being accused of here?

 Once again you're making out like I'm accusing victims of being liars. You can f^^k off, you're pissing me off now. You're making all sorts of wild assumptions about me. 🖕🏻

Quote

Research for the Home Office suggests that only 4% of cases of sexual violence reported to the UK police are found or suspected to be false. Studies carried out in Europe and in the US indicate rates of between 2% and 6%.

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Curious layman

[iNow]

9 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

what the fuck you going on about? What am I being accused of here?

 Once again you're making out like I'm accusing victims of being liars. You can f^^k off, you're pissing me off now. You're making all sorts of wild assumptions about me. 🖕🏻

What I hear you saying is that our default position here should be to assume you’re telling the truth. Sounds reasonable.

Doesn’t feel very good to have your stance rejected, dismissed, and belittled based on biased assumptions, yeah?

 

Also from your own link:

Quote

The weight and importance given to the issue of false allegation is surprising given how prevalent sexual violence is <...> The importance given to the issue of false allegations diverts attention away from questions that are ultimately more instructive for preventing sexual violence. And in fact, asking why reports of sexual harassment and violence are treated with suspicion may bring us closer to understanding what we can do to lift the barriers to reporting and seeking successful redress. It will also ultimately bring us closer to understanding the conditions in which sexual harassment and violence are enabled.

 

[Curious layman]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

What I hear you saying is that our default position here should be to assume you’re telling the truth. Sounds reasonable.

Doesn’t feel very good to have your stance rejected, dismissed, and belittled based on biased assumptions, yeah?

 

Also from your own link:

 

What stance? What's being belittled?

This is the problem, I've got no idea what stance you think I'm taking.

I made a comment about having heard the same thing in the op, and now I'm being accused of all sorts of shit. I've taken no stance.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Curious layman

[LaurieAG]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

What I hear you saying is that our default position here should be to assume you’re telling the truth.

The presumption of innocence is a fundamental principle of the common law. The UN Human Rights Committee has stated that the presumption of innocence imposes on the prosecution the burden of proving the charge and guarantees that no guilt can be presumed until the charge has been proved beyond reasonable doubt.

[iNow]

You suggested both a commonness and an unfairness, neither of which exist at a scale relevant enough to mention. 

6 hours ago, Curious layman said:

I've heard this said several times now in the U.K.

6 hours ago, Curious layman said:

The problem was what beecee and tim.tdj pointed out, the false accusations. If you're innocent then you should be able to defend yourself

5 hours ago, Curious layman said:

Footballer Ched Evans was accused of rape, sentenced to prison. He spent 2+ years in prison before being found not guilty.

 

4 minutes ago, LaurieAG said:

The presumption of innocence is a fundamental principle of the common law.

And nothing I’ve said contradicts this. 

Presumption of innocence simply means that unless and until the prosecution has proven that the defendant is guilty, the jury must be ready to bring back an acquittal

[Curious layman]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

You suggested both a commonness and an unfairness, neither of which exist at a scale relevant enough to mention. 

 

And nothing I’ve said contradicts this. 

Utter bollocks 

I have heard this several times, were talking about rape. It can be a controversial subject so it tends to make the news, hence people talk about it. Why is it so hard to believe that there are people who believe in what the OP said, and these people have rang in to radio talk shows or been in the audience of a talk show and panel members have then discussed it. What's so unbelievably out there about this statement.

You don't think going to prison for rape you didn't commit unfair. Okey dokey.

Your still making out that I think most women are liars and that the stats prove it. I've said nothing of the sort. I've made no statements and taken no stance.

[iNow]

You suggested both a commonness and an unfairness, neither of which exist at a scale relevant enough to mention. 
 

15 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

You don't think going to prison for rape you didn't commit unfair. Okey dokey.

Please avoid lying about my position. It does disservice to the marginal validity of yours. 

 

16 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

Your still making out that I think...

*You’re 

[Curious layman]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

Please avoid lying about my position. It does disservice to the marginal validity of yours.

I'd prefer it if you'd stop lying about mine seeing as though I haven't made one.

[iNow]

Our default position should be to assume they’re telling the truth.

That’s not the same as saying belief should be automatic 100% of the time with zero doubt whatsoever. 

[Curious layman]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

Our default position should be to assume they’re telling the truth.

That’s not the same as saying belief should be automatic 100% of the time with zero doubt whatsoever. 

You're accusing me of saying things again. I haven't said this.

I've heard people talk about this and take this position. At no point have claimed this  is my position. Not once.

[beecee]

7 hours ago, beecee said:

Perhaps the Barristers and Lawyers, need to be educated more on obtaining truth and reality, rather then a win at any cost? 

OK, Won't argue with that. Still, with my first link, I assumed on the 1 hour investigative program, that there was absolutely no evidence that showed anything had been committed at all, other then the words of two children, with the help of a religiously fanatical Mother.

 

7 hours ago, iNow said:

Nobody’s arguing that false accusations aren’t even made or that people aren’t on rare occasions punished unfairly. That barely ever happens, though. Most claims are true and based on actual events. In fact, what’s FAR more likely to happen is that victims fail to report or bring forward their experience to authorities... not that they make up something which never happened. That’s a defense common among abusers. 

In the minority sure, but put yourself in the situation of the family from the Blue Mountains, or the bloke in my other link, and there are at least two other relatively recent cases in NSW Australia, where false accusations of sexual assault and/or rape have been made. https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-sydney-man-falsely-accuses-him-of-indecent-assault-loses-everything-20190507 This poor bloke stopped to help a female in distress.

And of course on the other side of the coin and certainly more frequent, we have some absolutely horrible examples of genuine  sexual assault and rape. One prominent one in Sydney a few years ago was.... https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/bilal-skaf-15-facts-about-the-crimes-that-shook-sydney-to-its-core-15-years-ago/news-story/d8a6f6c53b88e05328cfbe2909d7224f

How can we genuinely make sure that proper investigations take place before a family like those poor devils in the Blue Mountain case, do not have to serve 7 months behind bars for something they are totally innocent of.

 

[StringJunky]

12 hours ago, zapatos said:

None of the links provided by beecee and tim.tdj support the assertion that "some people are saying that alleged victims of sexual abuse and rape should be automatically 100% believed without doubt."

beecee's links are examples people apparently being falsely accused of crimes and suffering the consequences prior to being released. Sad but doesn't directly address the assertion.

tim.tdj's link seems to refute his own assertion: ""don't assume women as a gender are especially deceptive or vindictive, and recognize that false allegations are less common than real ones."

This may have been his interpretation of what was said,  but it was said in a way that made one think that.  I also remember this conversation didn't go well....

Edited January 19, 2021 by StringJunky