BLM, Capitol Riot, Hypocrisy and False equivalency -Split from: Blow to US Democracy

[MigL]

Haven't seen this type of behavior since ( video clips of ) the late 60s.
Seems violent protest is the new normal for American society.
This past year has seen an insurrection on the elected Government of the Country, as well as a Summer of violent protests against authority/Judicial system, while cities were taken over, and held, by unlawful protesters.
D Trump just lit the fuse ( or recognized the flaw ), it can't all be blamed on him; this is uncharacteristic behavior for the American people, on both sides of the political spectrum.
Does the end justify the means now?
Is violence and destruction warranted when you think your cause is just ?
Whatever happened to reasoning and discourse ? Has it been replaced by emotional response ?

You guys better tone it down, before you actually tear your country apart ( remember 1861 ? )

[swansont]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Haven't seen this type of behavior since ( video clips of ) the late 60s.
Seems violent protest is the new normal for American society.
This past year has seen an insurrection on the elected Government of the Country, as well as a Summer of violent protests against authority/Judicial system, while cities were taken over, and held, by unlawful protesters.
D Trump just lit the fuse ( or recognized the flaw ), it can't all be blamed on him; this is uncharacteristic behavior for the American people, on both sides of the political spectrum.
Does the end justify the means now?

Did you just “both sides” sedition and insurrection?

[MigL]

I didn't compare the actions.
I compared the mindset of the perpetrators.

Don't let your biases misinterpret my meaning.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I didn't compare the actions.
I compared the mindset of the perpetrators.

Don't let your biases misinterpret my meaning.

Your meaning is far from clear when you speak of insurrection and protest in the same sentence. My “bias” is they aren’t the same thing.

[J.C.MacSwell]

 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Your meaning is far from clear when you speak of insurrection and protest in the same sentence. My “bias” is they aren’t the same thing.

Yeah. Let's make it clear that taking over parts of cities using intimidation and violence, and excluding authorities and police, can only reasonably count as "protest" and not insurrection.

Orwell would be proud.

Can we not condemn both violent extremes, regardless of whether we believe one is worse?

Does not condemning one not help ignite the other?

6 hours ago, MigL said:

 

You guys better tone it down, before you actually tear your country apart ( remember 1861 ? )

Or 1936, the Spanish Civil War. Absolutely brutal and based on ideological extremism, with atrocities common on both sides. This is what we are capable of.

Not directed at anyone:

Can we not condemn both violent extremes, and be a little more tolerant towards those in the middle seeking civil discourse?

Edited January 23, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[J.C.MacSwell]

Titled: "Look Who's Still Rioting" by Wall Street Journal published Jan 21, 2021

https://www.wsj.com/articles/look-whos-still-rioting-11611272972

"Portland police say some rioters carried “pepper ball guns, electronic crowd control weapons similar to Tasers, large fireworks, shields and rocks” and that “weapons were seized including Molotov Cocktails, knives, batons, chemical spray and a crowbar.” No doubt mostly peaceful protesters, as CNN likes to describe this sort of thing."

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Yeah. Let's make it clear that taking over parts of cities using intimidation and violence, and excluding authorities and police, can only reasonably count as "protest" and not insurrection.

Orwell would be proud.

Only if you can tell a freedom fighter from a terrorist.

He had very specific view's on the Spanish civil war.

 

16 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Can we not condemn both violent extremes, and be a little more tolerant towards those in the middle seeking civil discourse?

Yes of course, "but I find very little upside to, you have just shat on my carpet" - Frankie Boyle

Edited January 24, 2021 by dimreepr

[J.C.MacSwell]

53 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Only if you can tell a freedom fighter from a terrorist.

He had very specific view's on the Spanish civil war.

This was a sarcastic reference to doublespeak, not which "side" of the war he was on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwellian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak

A Democratic socialist that believed in a free and open society, and was against totalitarianism, that got caught up in the war.

Imagine that if you will.

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

This was a sarcastic reference to doublespeak, not which "side" of the war he was on.

Isn't doublespeak a reference to, the other side?

If you have just shat on my rug?

[iNow]

We can all agree that violence on either side is wrong and should be avoided.

What we seemingly cannot agree upon is why so many feel the need to engage in whataboutism and mention a protest in favor of following our laws done in Portland with an insurrection on our democracy itself trying to dismantle our laws in Washington DC.  

Whether intentionally or not, this suggests an equivalence between the events which is false and which only distracts us from dealing with each separately, appropriately, and in accordance with our laws. 

Person A: Climate change is a major problem. 
Person B: What about covid?! That’s a problem, too. 
Me: Both are. They’re not equivalent. They’re not mutually exclusive. We must deal with both at once. Walk and chew bubble gum. 

Simply replace climate and covid with DC and Portland. This isn’t exactly rocket science. 

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

Simply replace climate and covid with DC and Portland. This isn’t exactly rocket science.

Indeed, yet here we are...

[J.C.MacSwell]

28 minutes ago, iNow said:

We can all agree that violence on either side is wrong and should be avoided.

What we seemingly cannot agree upon is why so many feel the need to engage in whataboutism and mention a protest in favor of following our laws done in Portland with an insurrection on our democracy itself trying to dismantle our laws in Washington DC.  

Whether intentionally or not, this suggests an equivalence between the events which is false and which only distracts us from dealing with each separately, appropriately, and in accordance with our laws. 

Person A: Climate change is a major problem. 
Person B: What about covid?! That’s a problem, too. 
Me: Both are. They’re not equivalent. They’re not mutually exclusive. We must deal with both at once. Walk and chew bubble gum. 

Simply replace climate and covid with DC and Portland. This isn’t exactly rocket science. 

Which is why it's important to discuss things openly, honest;y and accurately, which the majority still respect, and while they still respect it.

[iNow]

 

[MigL]

4 hours ago, iNow said:

We can all agree that violence on either side is wrong and should be avoided.

If you had stopped there, I would have given you a +1 also.

Unfortunately you misguidedly went on about 'whataboutism', when some of you guys are the biggest offenders.
Anytime JC or I ( and a few others ) mention mis-steps by American progressives/Democrats, your first answer ( as well as Swansont, Phi, and a few others ) is always "But the Republicans do much much worse; they can't even be compared. So why are you even bringing it up ?"
If you can't think of the times you've done this, I can post numerous examples/quotes.

If that is your attitude, it is going to be a boring 4 years in the Politics Forum.
Everytime someone criticized the new Government, your first response will be "But D Trump did much worse during his Presidency."

And then I'm told I have biases

[iNow]

54 minutes ago, MigL said:

Anytime JC or I ( and a few others ) mention mis-steps by American progressives/Democrats, your first answer ... is always "But the Republicans do much much worse; they can't even be compared. So why are you even bringing it up ?"

If you can't think of the times you've done this, I can post numerous examples/quotes.

Yes. Please do. I’ll wait 

[J.C.MacSwell]

20 minutes ago, iNow said:

Yes. Please do. I’ll wait 

So...you can't admit that you've done it? 

[iNow]

I’ll withhold comment until these clear copious examples and quotes arrive 

[J.C.MacSwell]

27 minutes ago, iNow said:

I’ll withhold comment until these clear copious examples and quotes arrive 

I googled INow and "false equivalency". My computer started smoking...😛

Just to be clear...that wasn't suggesting you do false equivalencies.

[zapatos]

That's not what MigL claimed though. He was suggesting that iNow was unfairly dismissing valid claims of Democratic/Progressive mis-steps. 

You'll need to show not that iNow said "false equivalency" but that he did it simply as a dismissal of a valid criticism.

@MigL - I know you did not mention me specifically as someone who was dismissive of comments regarding poor 'Progressive' behavior but if you think I am guilty I'd honestly like to hear so. I don't think I am but of course it is sometimes difficult see ones own flaws.

[iNow]

I’m unsure where the spit should start, but feel a thread split is needed to address this separate path of needlessly personal claims of hypocrisy and double standards. Reporting this post to request that 

[zapatos]

14 minutes ago, iNow said:

I’m unsure where the spit should start...

I think it's already  begun. 😆

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

That's not what MigL claimed though. He was suggesting that iNow was unfairly dismissing valid claims of Democratic/Progressive mis-steps. 

You'll need to show not that iNow said "false equivalency" but that he did it simply as a dismissal of a valid criticism.

 

Not simple enough for you?

9 hours ago, iNow said:

We can all agree that violence on either side is wrong and should be avoided.

What we seemingly cannot agree upon is why so many feel the need to engage in whataboutism and mention a protest in favor of following our laws done in Portland with an insurrection on our democracy itself trying to dismantle our laws in Washington DC.  

Whether intentionally or not, this suggests an equivalence between the events which is false and which only distracts us from dealing with each separately, appropriately, and in accordance with our laws. 

 

I wonder what Portland Mayor and Democrat Ted Wheeler is on about?

Is he really against "protests in favour of following laws"?

https://www.wweek.com/news/city/2021/01/01/portland-mayor-ted-wheeler-demands-harsher-criminal-penalties-for-property-destruction/

Edited January 25, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

Thanks for letting me live rent free inside your head for so long 

[zapatos]

35 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Not simple enough for you?

Must you always be snarky?

[MigL]

Thanks JC.
( I'm at work, so I don't have much time.

Other than that example with regards to INow, there is also Swansont's from the top of the last page.
I commented on the uncharacteristic behavior of American protesters, both at the Capital and during the Summer BLM/G Floyd protests; I expect those kind of violent protests in other countries.
Swansont immediately commented that I was making an equivalence, when, in effect, HE was.
And someone liked his comment.
A

 

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

Thanks for letting me live rent free inside your head for so long 

If you don't like how we interpret what you write, maybe you shouldn't write it that way.
I interpret it the same as JC.
You claim that some violence is good if it's for the right cause; and some is bad if it's for the wrong cause.
And of course, YOU (and those who think like you ) are the arbiters of right and wrong.