2nd Impeachment of a US President

[iNow]

There’s literally no precedent here. Do I bump this thread to discuss the 2nd impeachment of a US president who will almost certainly be acquitted an unprecedented 2nd time by spineless GOP Senators, or is a new thread more appropriate?

[/rhetorical]

The Democratic House managers have IMO been doing a phenomenal job, but reliving the insurrection yesterday and today whilst watching them make their case has made clear for me that one of my favorite parts of the Biden presidency thus far is being able to watch the evening news again without it so deeply torturing me. 

[Phi for All]

10 hours ago, iNow said:

There’s literally no precedent here. Do I bump this thread to discuss the 2nd impeachment of a US president who will almost certainly be acquitted an unprecedented 2nd time by spineless GOP Senators, or is a new thread more appropriate?

!

Moderator Note

Fresh threat, fresh thread.

 

[StringJunky]

11 hours ago, iNow said:

There’s literally no precedent here. Do I bump this thread to discuss the 2nd impeachment of a US president who will almost certainly be acquitted an unprecedented 2nd time by spineless GOP Senators, or is a new thread more appropriate?

[/rhetorical]

The Democratic House managers have IMO been doing a phenomenal job, but reliving the insurrection yesterday and today whilst watching them make their case has made clear for me that one of my favorite parts of the Biden presidency thus far is being able to watch the evening news again without it so deeply torturing me. 

Apparently, even Trump was impressed with their presentation, whilst deriding his own lawyers wishy-washy efforts. I imagine there's some serious internal contortions happening within the more moderate GOP senators. The Dems may not get the numbers to convict but I think it will be more than present.

Edited February 11, 2021 by StringJunky

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I imagine there's some serious internal contortions happening within the more moderate GOP senators. The Dems may not get the numbers to convict but I think it will be more than present.

Yeah, we know how this vote will go so it looks like part of the process is making it as difficult as possible for the GOP to acquit... and making them look as bad as possible for doing so. 

Separate, but related... Registrations in the Republican party (where tracked and publicly available) are plummeting rapidly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/us/politics/republicans-leaving-party.html

Quote

In California, more than 33,000 registered Republicans left the party during the three weeks after the Washington riot. In Pennsylvania, more than 12,000 voters left the G.O.P. in the past month, and more than 10,000 Republicans changed their registration in Arizona.

An analysis of January voting records by The New York Times found that nearly 140,000 Republicans had quit the party in 25 states that had readily available data (19 states do not have registration by party). Voting experts said the data indicated a stronger-than-usual flight from a political party after a presidential election, as well as the potential start of a damaging period for G.O.P. registrations as voters recoil from the Capitol violence and its fallout.

 

While that's reassuring news, I also read a study yesterday or the day before suggesting that fully 70% of republican voters around the US will passionately / without any doubt vote AGAISNT any Senator who votes to hold Trump accountable... Basically, a decision by GOP Senators to do what's right and what's obvious here is equally a decision to end their political career.

That obviously tempers the hope I feel at the mass exodus in party registrations I previously referenced. The outcome would surely be different were it a secret ballot (like they did when deciding whether or not to remove Liz Cheney from House leadership).

[Phi for All]

23 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Apparently, even Trump was impressed with their presentation, whilst deriding his own lawyers wishy-washy efforts. I imagine there's some serious internal contortions happening within the more moderate GOP senators. The Dems may not get the numbers to convict but I think it will be more than present.

Fox News is doing their part to help the GOP, cutting away from the impactful video presentation from the House managers so their viewers weren't exposed to the facts. Instead, they felt it was more important to point out that, at this point, Dems don't have the votes so it's dumb to press on.

https://www.usnews.com/news/entertainment/articles/2021-02-10/fox-abruptly-cuts-off-impeachment-manager-during-testimony

[StringJunky]

13 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Fox News is doing their part to help the GOP, cutting away from the impactful video presentation from the House managers so their viewers weren't exposed to the facts. Instead, they felt it was more important to point out that, at this point, Dems don't have the votes so it's dumb to press on.

https://www.usnews.com/news/entertainment/articles/2021-02-10/fox-abruptly-cuts-off-impeachment-manager-during-testimony

Looks like they are trying it on and  hoping it will go away, by being dismissive.These are their only options when they don't have the moral or evidential advantage. I read today some GOP officials want to form a breakaway party. That could dilute GOP vote potential in future elections.

[Airbrush]

Watching the impeachment hearing, all day, every day, I wish the prosecutors would do more connecting the violence to Trump's constant, daily, for months and years, that the only way he could lose is by FRAUD.  Not enough repetition of this mantra.  The people attacking the capitol all believed Trump, that the election was stolen, and as Trump himself said, "when you have fraud, then that changes everything.  You have different rules!" 

Prosecutors should keep repeating that this big, fat lie, is based on plausible FICTIONS, no REAL evidence.  60 courts of law, including the Supreme Court, threw out ALL the fake evidence upon seeing it.  Are they all "deep state?"  Please keep repeating this mantra, prosecutors.  Or many will still believe the words of Bozo the Clown, who lied and exaggerated, like breathing, all his life.  The next Timothy McVeigh was in the capitol and he is now planning a big bomb against a soft, federal target. 🥶

"Timothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 – June 11, 2001) was an American domestic terrorist who carried out the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168 people and injured more than 680 others, and destroyed one third of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building."

Edited February 11, 2021 by Airbrush

[Phi for All]

4 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

Or many will still believe the words of Bozo the Clown, who lied and exaggerated, like breathing, all his life. 

This doesn't help. This is what Republicans point to when they claim people are against him no matter what. You're making claims about his whole life rather than follow your own advice and stick tightly to the events of the riot at the Capitol.

10 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

The next Timothy McVey was in the capitol and he is now planning a big bomb against a soft, federal target. 🥶

Again, I think this kind of emotion is misplaced at this point, but if you want to touch a nerve with folks, don't focus on what might happen. Focus on the fact that the ex-POTUS incited the Duck Dynasty to attack the same building the passengers of United Flight 93 died to save on 9/11. Foreign terrorists couldn't bring it down, but one ex-leader who broke all his promises to transition peacefully did it on TV and the internet for all to see. This is what most Republicans in leadership want us to condone.

[iNow]

21 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

I wish the prosecutors would do more connecting the violence to Trump's constant, daily, for months and years

That's exactly what they've been doing for the last 2 hours. Given that you posted this 21 minutes ago, I'm not sure how you've missed it.

[MigL]

M McConnel has publically stated that Senators are free to vote their conscience regarding the Impeachment.
Whether re-living those scary moments on video ( so many that I hadn't seen before ) is enough to push a few more Republicans to do what is right, and restore some sanity to the American Political system, remains to be seen.

The GOP must realize that if they don't vote to execute the impeachment, allow D Trump to form a new political party, and run for office again, it will split the Republican base, and they won't regain the Presidency/House/Senate for a very long time.
They are basically caught between a rock and a hard place.
Damned if they vote to impeach, and damned if they don't.

Hopefully the American Government doesn't waste too much time relegating D Trump to a sad part of American history.
There is still a pandemic going on; one that has killed almost TEN times as many Americans as were killed in combat in Vietnam.

[Phi for All]

I remember reading an article that claimed only 3 Republican Senators were needed to demand that they'll approve the trial conditions only if the ballots are done secretly. I think that would make a YUGE difference in the outcome of the trial. Has anyone heard any more about that?

[iNow]

11 minutes ago, MigL said:

They are basically caught between a rock and a hard place.
Damned if they vote to impeach, and damned if they don't.

Reaping what they’ve shown for many years. They created this monster that’s currently eating them. 

[John Cuthber]

4 hours ago, iNow said:

Separate, but related... Registrations in the Republican party (where tracked and publicly available) are plummeting rapidly.

What worries me is that people may be leaving the party because they see it as no longer supporting their hero: Trump.
OK that makes republicans unelectable which is good, but it is still terrifying that people might think that way.
They might not be leaving because they recognise that the Reps are crazy; they might be leaving because use they don't think  the reps are crazy enough.

What happened to Rep party membership when he was selected?

 

[iNow]

4 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

What worries me is that people may be leaving the party because they see it as no longer supporting their hero: Trump.
OK that makes republicans unelectable which is good, but it is still terrifying that people might think that way.
They might not be leaving because they recognise that the Reps are crazy; they might be leaving because use they don't think  the reps are crazy enough.

What happened to Rep party membership when he was selected?

What an excellent and entirely valid / relevant observation. Many may be leaving to push rightward toward the “Patriot Party.”

Registrations to the GOP surged in many states when he won the primary in 2016. People wanted to join “the Trump Party!” and many of them are likely now just reverting back to their previous baseline state. 

[beecee]

My observation  as an outsider in this impeachment, is that if justice is not done, and Trump is found innocent, then this will buoy him, and his supporters, to further unconstitutional  and disgraceful antics that may take place, culminating in more of the usual lies etc, and then an attempt again in 4 years.

Let's hope justice is done.

Edited February 12, 2021 by beecee

[iNow]

23 minutes ago, beecee said:

My observation  as an outsider in this impeachment, is that **if** —WHEN— justice is not done, and Trump is found innocent, then this will buoy him, and his supporters, to further unconstitutional  and disgraceful antics that may take place, culminating in more of the usual lies etc, and then an attempt again in 4 years.

There. —FTFY—

[John Cuthber]

[Janus]

17 hours ago, iNow said:

What an excellent and entirely valid / relevant observation. Many may be leaving to push rightward toward the “Patriot Party.”

Registrations to the GOP surged in many states when he won the primary in 2016. People wanted to join “the Trump Party!” and many of them are likely now just reverting back to their previous baseline state. 

On the other hand, there are a number of past members of former Republican administrations that have begun to discuss forming an Anti-Trump party over their dissatisfaction over how the present Republican establishment have been too subservient to Trump.

The party could be bleeding voters from both ends. 

[swansont]

Regarding McConnell saying senators are free to vote their conscience in the Impeachment 

It's quite scary to me that there is an implication that they need his permission to do so. It's also a tacit admission that many might vote because of the implications to their political future, rather than to uphold their oaths of office.

 

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Regarding McConnell saying senators are free to vote their conscience in the Impeachment 

It's quite scary to me that there is an implication that they need his permission to do so. It's also a tacit admission that many might vote because of the implications to their political future, rather than to uphold their oaths of office.

 

As a side note, in Germany it is usually expected that votes normally are along party lines, only when the party leader makes it free to vote one's conscience (as it happened recently for a same-sex marriage) are major breaks expected and/or tolerated. This is quite different to what the US used to be.

However, that implies that the GOP strategy is more to act like a party in parliamentary systems with stronger party control over votes.

[iNow]

Imagine how differently the Nuremberg trials would have gone had Nazis made up half the jury. Well, the US is about to show us what that would've looked like, so you hardly have to strain trying to visualize it

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

Regarding McConnell saying senators are free to vote their conscience in the Impeachment 

It's quite scary to me that there is an implication that they need his permission to do so. It's also a tacit admission that many might vote because of the implications to their political future, rather than to uphold their oaths of office.

 

Must be rather nice to see that the Dems never do that type of towing the party line...

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 hours ago, swansont said:

Regarding McConnell saying senators are free to vote their conscience in the Impeachment 

It's quite scary to me that there is an implication that they need his permission to do so. It's also a tacit admission that many might vote because of the implications to their political future, rather than to uphold their oaths of office.

 

“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.”

Robert Burns, Scottish poet and socialist 1786

[MigL]

I fail to see why JC deserves two demerit points for pointing out that not being able o vote 'your conscience' is a fault of the American Political system, and that both dominant parties engage in this behaviour that Swansont finds scary.
It's not like this is a new thing, or for Republicans only; why wasn't he scared before ?
( Sorry JC, I can only restore 1 point, but I liked your R Burns )

You know, the Democrats control the Presidency, the House and the Senate. They had better start getting used to criticism, as the ball is now in their court.
And before someone says "Any mistakes they make should be forgiven because the Republicans and Trump were much worse.", I shouldn't have to remind you that THAT is 'whataboutism'.

[CharonY]

54 minutes ago, MigL said:

You know, the Democrats control the Presidency, the House and the Senate. They had better start getting used to criticism, as the ball is now in their court.

Well, I do not think that they need to start doing that. After all they had that during start of the Obama's term and they were heavily criticized, especially from the left wing democrats. I mean the Reps, too, but much of it was on the ridiculous side (mostly because Obama was so moderate, it played quite into their hands).