Transgender athletes

[Curious layman]

how do we intergrate them? 

I support transgender rights, but there are serious issues with former men entering women's sports. Mike Tyson would be an example.

Would it be possible to have another way to determine who plays what sport?

So instead of male and female, base it on muscle ratio or testosterone levels?

Do we need to do anything at all?

 

[swansont]

I missed where Mike Tyson announced they are transgender. Do you have a link?

[Curious layman]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

I missed where Mike Tyson announced they are transgender. Do you have a link?

Of course I don't. It's an extreme example.

But if someone like Mike Tyson in his prime were to change sex and enter women's boxing he would probably kill them. Not just boxing, rugbys another one. 

Would you be comfortable with an in prime Iron mike in women's boxing?

 

[swansont]

23 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

Of course I don't. It's an extreme example.

But if someone like Mike Tyson in his prime were to change sex and enter women's boxing he would probably kill them. Not just boxing, rugbys another one. 

Would you be comfortable with an in prime Iron mike in women's boxing?

 

But it’s not an example.

It’s a boogie-man. It’s a monster under the bed. A made-up scenario to frighten people. A slippery-slope fallacy. 

 

You can’t have an honest discussion if you aren’t properly representing the situation. 

[Curious layman]

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

But it’s not an example.

It’s a boogie-man. It’s a monster under the bed. A made-up scenario to frighten people. A slippery-slope fallacy. 

 

You can’t have an honest discussion if you aren’t properly representing the situation. 

A monster under the bed! 

So you don't think someone like him could become transgender and we should ignore it because it will probably never happen?

Men are physically stronger than women, at some point it will be a problem.

57 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

Would it be possible to have another way to determine who plays what sport?

So instead of male and female, base it on muscle ratio or testosterone levels?

This is my question, what I'm interested in discussing. Not the right and wrongs of transgender's in sport.

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, Curious layman said:

So instead of male and female, base it on muscle ratio or testosterone levels?

From what I remember testosterone levels of transgender women are the same as as other female ranges after sex reassignment procedures. One could extend the question also to individuals who are intersex, for example. I am not sure whether there are clear answers to the issue, though.

It also does not help that data is sparse, as there are only few elite transgender athletes. Depending on the sport some studies found little difference in performance (non-elite long-distancing running, IIRC). But it is unclear (beside anecdotal evidence) how big the effect would be in the elite athletic scene.

[Curious layman]

No offence, but I was hoping CharonY might answer. I'm genuinely interested   If sports will have to change regarding transgender people. 

Is mixed sports a possibility. Could transgender people be able to play in either sport?

Edit: CharonY just replied 🙂

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Curious layman

[Prometheus]

Here's a real example from MMA. I don't know enough about the issue to comment, but i can see why people would be concerned.

[Curious layman]

1 minute ago, Prometheus said:

concerned

Exactly. Concerned, not against.

[CharonY]

I think there is no biological answers to that. We create gender separated leagues for a variety reasons and the decision would likely be based on what aspect one would like to emphasize. 

[swansont]

56 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

A monster under the bed! 

So you don't think someone like him could become transgender and we should ignore it because it will probably never happen?

The phrase “become transgender” is problematic. I’m not sure it’s something you “become” Is that how trans people describe it?

Are you presenting a scenario where someone who is not trans pretends to be? i.e. they are trying to cheat? 

 

 

Quote

Men are physically stronger than women

No, that’s not a true statement. Men, on average, are stronger. But that statement is assuming there are just the two gender categories. 

 

Anyway

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

[CharonY]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

The phrase “become transgender” is problematic. I’m not sure it’s something you “become” Is that how trans people describe it?

That is a good point.  

[zapatos]

40 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

Exactly. Concerned, not against.

Why are you "concerned"? Is someone in danger? Do you have examples of injuries?

This is just another issue concerning sports, along with equitable pay, the rule regarding turnovers due to fumbles that go out of the end zone, and the use of HGH.

Trying to scare people with scenarios like Mike Tyson killing young ladies in the ring simply feeds into peoples' fears and makes this a more difficult issue than it needs to be.

People also used to be afraid that women would die if they were allowed to compete in the marathon.

[Curious layman]

39 minutes ago, swansont said:

Are you presenting a scenario where someone who is not trans pretends to be? i.e. they are trying to cheat? 

 

No. That's just poor phrasing by me. Apologies for confusion, my fault.

Just a genuine interest in the future of sport regarding transgender people. How do we make it fair for everyone.

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

Why are you "concerned"? Is someone in danger? Do you have examples of injuries?

This is just another issue concerning sports, along with equitable pay, the rule regarding turnovers due to fumbles that go out of the end zone, and the use of HGH.

Trying to scare people with scenarios like Mike Tyson killing young ladies in the ring simply feeds into peoples' fears and makes this a more difficult issue than it needs to be.

People also used to be afraid that women would die if they were allowed to compete in the marathon.

I'm using Mike Tyson because everybody knows who he is, and I'll admit it's an extreme example.

'is someone in danger'

not now, but the point is they could be.

hence the question "is it possible to have another way to decide who plays in what sport"

Just to reiterate, I'm interested in the future of sport and how it will or will not change regarding transgender people. Not whether they should be allowed to play.

[CharonY]

15 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Why are you "concerned"? Is someone in danger? Do you have examples of injuries?

This is just another issue concerning sports, along with equitable pay, the rule regarding turnovers due to fumbles that go out of the end zone, and the use of HGH.

Trying to scare people with scenarios like Mike Tyson killing young ladies in the ring simply feeds into peoples' fears and makes this a more difficult issue than it needs to be.

People also used to be afraid that women would die if they were allowed to compete in the marathon.

I think the concerns are mostly in the area of contact sports and related injury risk, but again much of it is based on a certain amount of extrapolation (a Swedish study showing that testosterone reduction does only lead to minor muscle mass loss, for example) rather than actual performance data.

I think it is one of the (many) areas that would benefit from more precise data. But in general I think the whole way sports are set up are to a large degree arbitrary, anyway.

For example in basketball taller players have large benefits, so one could at least in theory argue that to ensure fairness, there should be a height cap. And obviously there are no principles that would prohibit any arbitrary number or set of rules.

 

Edit: Also, the scope of the issue might actually be fairly small so there is also the question whether the concern is actually balanced well with the real-life situation.

[swansont]

4 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

No. That's just poor phrasing by me. Apologies for confusion, my fault.

Just a genuine interest in the future of sport regarding transgender people. How do we make it fair for everyone.

I'm using Mike Tyson because everybody knows who he is, and I'll admit it's an extreme example.

Why not use an actual example instead of making something up?

 

 

[Curious layman]

Just now, swansont said:

Why not use an actual example instead of making something up?

 

 

Because this is a recent thing, so there aren't any I can think of.

 

2 hours ago, Curious layman said:

Would it be possible to have another way to determine who plays what sport?

So instead of male and female, base it on muscle ratio or testosterone levels?

Once again, this is the question I'm interested in. The future of sport, how will it change to accommodate everyone fairly.

If it doesn't need to be, then fine. I'm interested in being educated on the subject not making a statement.

[swansont]

5 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

Would it be possible to have another way to determine who plays what sport?

You could go with believing people when they tell you the gender with which they identify. Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

[Curious layman]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

You could go with believing people when they tell you the gender with which they identify. Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

Who said I didn't believe them. 

I was under the impression there are physical differences between men and women. If their aren't, can you explain why we have male and female sports instead of just sport?

 

[Danijel Gorupec]

We don't have just male and female sports.... we have many more. For example, in boxing you have several weight categorizes (male and female). We make categorization in many different ways (by weight, by age, by sex, by disabilities.... or even by allowance of certain drugs). Once categorized, we can separate athletes into category-clean groups or we can include some handicap to certain categories to make them even.

I agree with Curious Layman that future of sex-based categorization is not bright. I think, after some longer time, some other categorization method (depending on sport) will become more popular (in boxing, for example, we might choose to categorize only by bone+muscle mass).

What I hope is that there will be the ultimate category. The category where anybody can try to compete.... (btw, is this already so.... are all 'man' sports open for females who might be able to compete?)

 

[Curious layman]

12 minutes ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

 

What I hope is that there will be the ultimate category. The category where anybody can try to compete.... (btw, is this already so.... are all 'man' sports open for females who might be able to compete?)

 

IIRC there have been women in men's NASCAR, golf too. Probably more.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_NASCAR_drivers

quite a few actually.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Curious layman

[swansont]

46 minutes ago, Curious layman said:

Who said I didn't believe them. 

I was under the impression there are physical differences between men and women. If their aren't, can you explain why we have male and female sports instead of just sport?

 

There are physical difference between any arbitrary group of men, and any arbitrary group of women. Can just anybody succeed at basketball? At horse racing? Is there a lot of crossover participation between pro jockeys and the NBA? We have weight classes in wrestling and boxing. 

Yes, sexual dimorphism is real. But you’re presenting it as a specific, rather than a general trend.

There are different issues when one is speaking of professional sports and amateur sports, where everyone is supposed to be able to participate 

 

[Curious layman]

5 minutes ago, swansont said:

There are physical difference between any arbitrary group of men, and any arbitrary group of women. Can just anybody succeed at basketball? At horse racing? Is there a lot of crossover participation between pro jockeys and the NBA? We have weight classes in wrestling and boxing. 

Yes, sexual dimorphism is real. But you’re presenting it as a specific, rather than a general trend.

There are different issues when one is speaking of professional sports and amateur sports, where everyone is supposed to be able to participate 

 

Very well put, thank you.

[zapatos]

3 hours ago, Curious layman said:

'is someone in danger'

not now, but the point is they could be.

Mike Tyson brutalized many of the fighters he faced. Some literally ran away from him in the ring. 

If we take your scenario of "different categories for different danger levels" then we would need boxing weight classes such as welterweight, cupcake welterweight, and ass-stomping welterweight.

When Ronda Rousey was at her prime no one could fight her without a serious risk to life and limb. She would not have been allowed to fight anyone due to being put into a fighting class occupied only by herself.

[VenusPrincess]

5 hours ago, swansont said:

You could go with believing people when they tell you the gender with which they identify. Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

Because unlike you nature cannot be fooled.