Transgender athletes

[Prometheus]

13 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I have to admit that I am not particularly interested in sports, but from what I can tell these scenarios are not happening and as mentioned above and as long as there is little evidence of exclusion of non-transgender women I feel that is no strong indicator for a need to be exclude transgender athletes. 

As far as i can tell from the BMJ editorials related to those studies, the concern in sports medicine seems to focus mostly on the nuances of competition rules. For instance, there are calls to make the period of hormone therapy longer before allowing transwomen to compete with ciswomen. 

There have also safety concerns raised in the MMA community, though i can't find anything related to that with my glance at the academic literature. Haven't time for a deeper dive so i'll have to leave it there.

[MigL]

10 hours ago, CharonY said:

As mentioned above, after reassignment, testosterone level are virtually indistinguishable. Also as already mentioned, there is a paucity on data indicating that there is a problem. If you have access to studies that demonstrate an actual issue, please share them.

As you have admitted, you have little interest in sports, so I need to make some 'background' explanations.

Let's stay with Olympic level sprinting competitions, as Curious has already posted some data on the subject.
Ben Johnson, Canadian, and the fastest man alive in 1988, was stripped of his Olympic gold medals in 1988, and awarded to the 'slower' Carl Lewis,apparently because C Lewis' doctors were better able to mask the presence of testosterone derivatives in his urine.
All naturally born male, and female, sprinters at these levels of competition are screened for these performance enhancing drugs, yet you are proposng that transgendered sprinters should not be screened because their levels are 'close' to the naturally occurring levels of their reassigned sex.
THAT is an unfair advantage.

Do they get to skip testing altogether, and we have their 'word' that they are not boosting their levels ?
Should we have a set baseline for levels in a typical male, and a typical female, when we both know there is no 'typical' ?
Should we have a separate class for athletes who need to boost their levels because of sex reassignment ?

I really fail to see how this is not worthy ( or too sensitive ??? ) to be discussed.
Do we now just bury our heads in the sand for fear that discussion might 'hurt' feelings ?
( are we aknowledging that certain peoples mental framework migh not be robust enough to handle such discussion, and, that thinking they were born with the wrong sex, is the least of their worries ? )

[iNow]

41 minutes ago, MigL said:

I really fail to see how this is not worthy ( or too sensitive ??? ) to be discussed.
Do we now just bury our heads in the sand for fear that discussion might 'hurt' feelings ?

Wait... What the what? Nobody has suggested anything even remotely similar to this. Don’t be so sensitive, snowflake  

[swansont]

48 minutes ago, MigL said:

All naturally born male, and female, sprinters at these levels of competition are screened for these performance enhancing drugs, yet you are proposng that transgendered sprinters should not be screened because their levels are 'close' to the naturally occurring levels of their reassigned sex.
THAT is an unfair advantage.

Where was this proposed? 

 

Quote

Do they get to skip testing altogether, and we have their 'word' that they are not boosting their levels ?
Should we have a set baseline for levels in a typical male, and a typical female, when we both know there is no 'typical' ?

Not only is there no typical, this is talking about the very top performers of sport, which is performing at several standard deviations away from average, assuming there is a normal distribution.

 

 

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I really fail to see how this is not worthy ( or too sensitive ??? ) to be discussed.
Do we now just bury our heads in the sand for fear that discussion might 'hurt' feelings ?
( are we aknowledging that certain peoples mental framework migh not be robust enough to handle such discussion, and, that thinking they were born with the wrong sex, is the least of their worries ? )

Considering that the discussion is 4 pages deep, this claim is more than a little weird. 

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

As you have admitted, you have little interest in sports, so I need to make some 'background' explanations.

I still fail to see why your are so hang up on testosterone, as I mentioned a few times, the levels are the same in trans as well as a cis-women. I did not say that the do not need to be screened. I said that screening did not reveal any statistical differences. In fact, simple testosterone testing would likely be very inclusive, but in the lit Prometheus provided the discussion is more fundamental as the concern also highlighted in OP is about whether a) there is lingering competitive advantage regardless of testosterone levels  b) whether that inadvertently creates a non-inclusive situation for cis-women in spots.

 

1 hour ago, Prometheus said:

s far as i can tell from the BMJ editorials related to those studies, the concern in sports medicine seems to focus mostly on the nuances of competition rules. For instance, there are calls to make the period of hormone therapy longer before allowing transwomen to compete with ciswomen.

I agree. I think the overall discussion is at the interface between being inclusionary, but for all women (trans and cis) and trying to come up with a scenario were neither are unduly penalized. But I also think that currently the body of knowledge has not advanced to a point where we can make clear claims. The call for prolonging therapy time is evidence of how information has changed during these discussion. I think that the current 12 month rule was in part implemented as it was found that after about this time period testosterone levels are reduced to the same levels as cis-women. The gist of the Lundgren group (and others) is that physiological advantages extend beyond that point. 

[MigL]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

Not only is there no typical, this is talking about the very top performers of sport,

And this is exactly the level at which testing is mandatory, and 'artificial' doping with testosterone derivative ( performance enhancing ) drugs is flagged and deemed unacceptable.

If you have two female athletes, one of which is on hormone therapy ( after reassignment surgery ), and the other is on testosterone based performance enhancers, they will both be flagged by the screening process.

The one which is on performance enhancers we, as a society, have agreed should be disqualified.
What do you propose to do with the one on hormone therapy?
Simply ignore the positive result, as it is in the 'typical' range ?
If she ups her dosage the the maximum 'typical' range, so that she is getting her therapy, plus a performance enhancement, is that still OK?

If we have rules for testosterone based performance enhancers, we might want to put some rules in place for those receiving those drugs as therapy.
Yet even after 4 pages, CharonY, people are still unwilling to discuss any specifics.

If

[zapatos]

23 minutes ago, MigL said:

Yet even after 4 pages, CharonY, people are still unwilling to discuss any specifics.

 

Please be specific. WHO is unwilling to discuss specifics?

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

If we have rules for testosterone based performance enhancers, we might want to put some rules in place for those receiving those drugs as therapy.
Yet even after 4 pages, CharonY, people are still unwilling to discuss any specifics.

I am having difficulties understanding what you are trying to say. After re-assignment surgery testosterone suppressors are used in addition to estrogens, both of which reduce testosterone levels. After an about one year- regimen the levels are typically stably reduced to that of cis-women and I believe current regulations require that transgender women need to maintain these low levels in order to compete. I.e. in you example only the cis-woman is expected have higher testosterone levels. If the trans-woman show enhanced testosterone levels, it is not because of hormone therapy, it is despite of it (and again, these tests are done routinely, so I also do not quite  understand why you seem to claim that they aren't and I cannot see anyone stating that they shouldn't).

Or do you mean transgender men? Because they would get testosterone supplements. In that case you need to be more specific (heh) in your explanation as most of the discussion was about how transgender women might have an unfair advantage. And from what I understand trans-men are allowed to compete without restrictions.

[Curious layman]

15 minutes ago, CharonY said:

And from what I understand trans-men are allowed to compete without restrictions.

You know, I never thought of this before. Very good point.

[MigL]

Sorry for the confusion, CharonY.

As we were discussing testosterone based performance enhancing drugs, I didn't think I needed to mention testosterone based hormone therapy which would ' enhance' a 'natural born' female's masculinity for gender reassignment.

I apologize for my unfamiliarity with pronouns that multiply daily.
Please explain trans-man and trans-woman, with respect to naturally born and surgically/hormonally reassigned, so that we may discuss the same thing.

[CharonY]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

Sorry for the confusion, CharonY.

As we were discussing testosterone based performance enhancing drugs, I didn't think I needed to mention testosterone based hormone therapy which would ' enhance' a 'natural born' female's masculinity for gender reassignment.

I apologize for my unfamiliarity with pronouns that multiply daily.
Please explain trans-man and trans-woman, with respect to naturally born and surgically/hormonally reassigned, so that we may discuss the same thing.

The terms have been around since the 90s, I believe. However, the easiest way to think about it is that in this context man or woman corresponds to the gender which a person identifies with. Trans or Cis refers to the relationship between their identification and their sex. A transgender person therefore was born with a different sex than what they identify with, whereas a for cis-person both are aligned. 

So a trans-man would be someone who was born female and underwent gender re-assignment, which typically includes testosterone supplementation. As that person identifies as a man, it would make no sense to compete with women (and vice versa). As such, your examples simply did not make sense to me. If that is the basis for the confusion, it would appear that you might have missed the basic premise of OP.

[MigL]

Thank you for the explanation.

There is no confusion on my part, either as to the premise of the OP, or to the fact that, at those levels of competition, competitors get tested.
And a trans-man will test positive.

What do you do with that result, when it would result in the disqualification of any other competitor ?

[StringJunky]

20 minutes ago, MigL said:

Thank you for the explanation.

There is no confusion on my part, either as to the premise of the OP, or to the fact that, at those levels of competition, competitors get tested.
And a trans-man will test positive.

What do you do with that result, when it would result in the disqualification of any other competitor ?

Trans status will be declared, so it's easy enough to monitor... and differentiate fraud. Time and research with subjects  in a more hospitable environment should elucidate best practice going forward.

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by StringJunky

[MigL]

7 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Time and research with subjects  in a more hospitable environment should elucidate best practice going forward.

Nice try, Stringy 🙂 .

Most sport governing bodies set out the rules before hand.
The Olympic, Formula1, FIFA, PGA, etc. don't wait until an infraction possibly occurrs, and only then, decide on a case by case basis.

[zapatos]

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

Nice try, Stringy 🙂 .

Most sport governing bodies set out the rules before hand.
The Olympic, Formula1, FIFA, PGA, etc. don't wait until an infraction possibly occurrs, and only then, decide on a case by case basis.

I don't think Stringy said otherwise. You figure out what the rules should be for Transgender competitors, you monitor everyone, you react to infractions based on the rules.

[StringJunky]

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

Nice try, Stringy 🙂 .

Most sport governing bodies set out the rules before hand.
The Olympic, Formula1, FIFA, PGA, etc. don't wait until an infraction possibly occurrs, and only then, decide on a case by case basis.

They will declare use of those substances, so what is the issue? The ultimate effect on fair competition cannot be known until it is tried.

Just now, zapatos said:

I don't think Stringy said otherwise. You figure out what the rules should be for Transgender competitors, you monitor everyone, you react to infractions based on the rules.

Yes. You can't hypothesize the outcome, you have to try it.

[swansont]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

Nice try, Stringy 🙂 .

Most sport governing bodies set out the rules before hand.
The Olympic, Formula1, FIFA, PGA, etc. don't wait until an infraction possibly occurrs, and only then, decide on a case by case basis.

I think drug testing in sports shows this not to be true. PEDs were around before there were rules banning them. The Olympics first did drug testing in 1968. Nobody used PEDs before that?

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 3/5/2021 at 1:51 PM, swansont said:

But it’s not an example.

It’s a boogie-man. It’s a monster under the bed. A made-up scenario to frighten people. A slippery-slope fallacy. 

 

You can’t have an honest discussion if you aren’t properly representing the situation. 

It's an example of what needs to be considered when making rules for competitive athletes, especially at the most elite levels, for both competitive fairness (I agree fairness is somewhat subjective here) and safety. More typical examples are less concerning.

On 3/5/2021 at 2:55 PM, swansont said:

 

Anyway

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

Did you read the article linked and agree with the conclusions? Do you accept them as "facts" as claimed and feel they have debunked the "myths"?

As an example:

“"A person’s genetic make-up and internal and external reproductive anatomy are not useful indicators of athletic performance,”according to Dr. Joshua D. Safer."

I assume Dr. Safer is a medical doctor. Would you agree with his statement?

It seems to me they are mostly making emotional arguments based on concerns for transgenders. However well meaning toward transgenders they are completely ignoring the threat to elite women's sports.

I think it is very important to encourage transgenders in sports, but I think it will be very difficult to fairly include trans women fairly at elite levels for many sports, possibly most sports. It's simply not just about testosterone, even if testosterone levels are a significant factor. 

Many States allow transgender high school athletes to compete in the category of their choice at State level. To their credit, at least they don't force them to alter their bodies or hormone levels, but for some athletes this gives them a distinct advantage, and it does affect many elite cisgendered woman, I would say unfairly.

The US women's soccer football team is the best in the World. They are elite athletes. They would struggle against a top high school boys team.

[iNow]

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The US women's soccer football team is the best in the World. They are elite athletes. They would struggle against a top high school boys team.

Come on, bud. Please tell me you don’t really believe this. It assumes so very many things and demonstrates so very many inherent biases. 

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It's an example of what needs to be considered when making rules for competitive athletes, especially at the most elite levels

You may as well suggest, Bolt is to tall to run... 

The only fair playing field, is level for all; drugs included...

Winning a sport can only be an arbitery measure of being...

Edited March 20, 2021 by dimreepr

[VenusPrincess]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Please tell me you don’t really believe this

From FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team in a scrimmage - CBSSports.com in 2017:

Quote

 

In preparation for two upcoming friendlies against Russia, the U.S. women’s national team played the FC Dallas U-15 boys academy team on Sunday and fell 5-2, according to FC Dallas’ official website. 

This friendly came as the U.S. looked to tune up before taking on Russia on Thursday night in a friendly.

Just last month the U.S. lost the SheBelieves Cup, winning the first game over Germany 1-0 before losing to England (1-0) and France (3-0).

Of course, this match against the academy team was very informal and should not be a major cause for alarm. The U.S. surely wasn’t going all out, with the main goal being to get some minutes on the pitch, build chemistry when it comes to moving the ball around, improve defensive shape and get ready for Russia.

 

 

[zapatos]

23 minutes ago, VenusPrincess said:

From FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team in a scrimmage - CBSSports.com in 2017:

 

Quote

FCD players are generation adidas players, homegrown players, and are at the pinnacle place for national and international recognition, recruitment, and development.

What does the FC Dallas program have to offer?

As a member of FCDY, you will have access to a wealth of resources, opportunities, and assistance. The FCD Curriculum, The FCD Professional Team and Professional Coaching staff, Toyota Soccer Center and Toyota Stadium, MLS games, The FCD Juniors Program, Elite Clubs National League, FCD player appearances, a full time front office staff to help in administrative work and collections, fundraising opportunities, the FCD Foundation, college advising, international partnerships, a rapidly growing affiliate program, pool training, national recognition, School of Excellence camps, continuing education for our coaches, professional camps and clinics, distinction, continuity, tradition, and success… The future of youth soccer is in The FCD Way©.

https://www.fcdallas.com/youth/teams/select

This is the kind of place top high schools send their best players.

In addition the game was a friendly warmup. Perhaps not a definitive example.

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Come on, bud. Please tell me you don’t really believe this. It assumes so very many things and demonstrates so very many inherent biases. 

Yours perhaps.

 It's really not that uncommon. VP gave an example of a U15 team. That's a little unusual. A top High School Team would beat them, almost certainly.

The Canadian and US women's hockey Teams frequently train against Midget Teams (under 18). They would fair better as they use the rules of the Women's game, but a National U18 Team would beat them soundly.

The point is that these women are elite athletes, and deserve to be recognized as such. Allowing trans women to displace them, however well intended, puts that at risk.

I also don't blame the trans women athletes for wanting to identify as female and wanting to compete as such...I don't blame them at all. But it's unfair to other athletes.

But carry on with your knee jerk assumptions as to my inherent biases.

[VenusPrincess]

15 minutes ago, zapatos said:

This is the kind of place top high schools send their best players.

See below, emphasis mine.

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

They would struggle against a top high school boys team.

 

17 minutes ago, zapatos said:

In addition the game was a friendly warmup.

Do you believe those women would voluntarily bear the embarrassment of losing to teenage boys if they could have prevented it? Your grasp on reality is weak, arguably even pathological or indicative of mental illness. This is why some people will never vote liberal despite agreeing with many of their other policies. Such a shame that a party with many good ideas is sullied by mentally unwell people.

[J.C.MacSwell]

This can be a worthwhile discussion if we avoid letting things get personal. It is an important issue IMO.