Transgender athletes

[Intoscience]

53 minutes ago, swansont said:

Then provide examples of professional athletes being impacted.

And also where they bring "fairness" into their rules. If a basketball player is 7' 4" how is this "fair" to someone who is 5' 6"? 

 

 

I don't have any examples, which is why I stated I don't have an opinion on whether there is or not any advantage. My point was "if" there is a possibility which might have an effect then should it not be considered and then perhaps investigated in a scientific professional manner?

All I'm saying is if you have a category in place that works, in this particular discussion male/female then there is a clear definition between the advantages/disadvantages that may arise in competition. You can't argue that in general, in some disciplines, male professional athletes have a physical advantage over females. If this was not the case then female athletes would compare the same in performance, times, weights etc... But they don't.  

I'm not saying it would be the case if transgender athletes compete against female athletes they would have an unfair advantage. I'm not an expert and don't have the relevant evidence to suggest or have an opinion either way.      

Edited July 1, 2021 by Intoscience

[iNow]

There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of athletes. 

Transgendered people have already been competing with them incognito.

Transgendered humans also make up much less than 1% of the population. 

I reject the idea that there will be a huge impact, and struggle even to see a marginal impact on fairness and competition, but acknowledge it. 

I also acknowledge that people feel differently and that’s okay, but while your individual motivations / rationalizations may be pure, at the broader societal level this isn’t about protecting athletes. This is about attacking transgendered humans. 

Millions upon millions of athletes out there. Maybe a few hundred (or even a few thousand) transgendered examples… many of whom were already competing outside of our awareness. Isn’t there a saying that applies here… something about mountains out of molehills… being penny wise and pound foolish?

Perspective. 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I'm not saying you don't have a legitimate view point. No one should be forced to give a damn about Women's sport or drug testing to keep it clean and healthy. If you don't that's fine.

You may as well argue, it's not fair because I lost...

[Intoscience]

17 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

About what?

About setting limits and rules that are consistent for each category in any particular sporting activity at the professional level. 

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

About setting limits and rules that are consistent for each category in any particular sporting activity at the professional level. 

What is the point of a game?

[Intoscience]

13 minutes ago, iNow said:

There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of athletes. 

Transgendered people have already been competing with them incognito.

Transgendered humans also make up much less than 1% of the population. 

I reject the idea that there will be a huge impact, and struggle even to see a marginal impact on fairness and competition, but acknowledge it. 

I also acknowledge that people feel differently and that’s okay, but while your individual motivations / rationalizations may be pure, at the broader societal level this isn’t about protecting athletes. This is about attacking transgendered humans. 

Millions upon millions of athletes out there. Maybe a few hundred (or even a few thousand) transgendered examples… many of whom were already competing outside of our awareness. Isn’t there a saying that applies here… something about mountains out of molehills… being penny wise and pound foolish?

Perspective. 

You could well be correct, I don't know enough to argue the stats.

It may have escalated into transgender attacks, I'm sure this is might be the case.

I am a purist when it comes to rules and fairness, but in reality I realise that this is unachievable.  

I'm just stating my view point on the matter of fairness in sporting competition, especially in professional sports where people are directly affected. 

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What is the point of a game?

Depends on the game, and what you are playing for. If its a competition then the aim is to win. 

Your point?

15 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

You may as well argue, it's not fair because I lost...

So you may as well argue that everyone can cheat to win if they like? 

No point in rules, limits or even competition for that matter then. 

  

Edited July 1, 2021 by Intoscience

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Depends on the game, and what you are playing for. If its a competition then the aim is to win. 

Your point?

The aim of the game is to play, what you learn from the game; is the point...

[Intoscience]

Just now, dimreepr said:

The aim of the game is to play, what you learn from the game; is the point...

So if its a competition winning or losing doesn't matter? I play all sorts of games, especially sports. I play because I enjoy them, but I also "compete" to try and win. I learn lots from playing, winning and losing, its good for my metal stability among other things. 

I get disgruntled if I lose when someone cheats to win, why shouldn't I ?? 

[iNow]

25 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

I'm just stating my view point on the matter of fairness in sporting competition, especially in professional sports where people are directly affected. 

Totally understand, and please recall I wasn't responding directly to you... People are directly affected, and I feel bad for all six of them. 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Intoscience said:

I get disgruntled if I lose when someone cheats to win, why shouldn't I ??

Because it's just a game... 

[Intoscience]

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

Totally understand, and please recall I wasn't responding directly to you... People are directly affected, and I feel bad for all six of them. 

Thanks, hey you made me spit my coffee out chuckling (my bold) that was very witty. 😆

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Because it's just a game... 

Ah... I see where you are going on this. Yep that is one perspective, I guess it depends on the value of that game to each individual, and if or what effect it has on their lives. 

I get disgruntled, then I just let it go, since other than my short term emotional state, it doesn't really affect my life in any real detrimental way. 

However, if it was my professional living and the winning pay cheque was important, I may have a different view point. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Intoscience

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

Totally understand, and please recall I wasn't responding directly to you... People are directly affected, and I feel bad for all six of them. 

But it only takes one to upset the  apple cart. Let's say Usain Bolt has had his bits snipped and tucked and is now 'Lily Bolt'. It's not likely, but what what do we do, turn a blind eye? Will the reassignment weaken Bolt in a way that is fair?. You can't say it doesn't matter and is too rare because Lily Bolt would likely be in the record books... as the fastest human, let alone woman.  At the highest levels, where fractions of a second matter, it would seem to me to be consequential.  I don't know the solution.

 

 

[zapatos]

I have no complaints against figuring out some equitable way to allow transgender athletes to compete. Science will help. Experience will help.

What bothers me is the people who have already decided that it is "unfair" and shouldn't be allowed. Well, unfair to cisgender people anyway; to hell with the transgender people.

This feels the same as the people who said gays getting married will destroy the institution of marriage, that women in the military will ruin the military, and that miscegenation will ruin our country.

[iNow]

12 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Let's say Usain Bolt has had his bits snipped and tucked and is now 'Lily Bolt'. It's not likely, but what what do we do, turn a blind eye? Will the reassignment weaken Bolt in a way that is fair?. You can't say it doesn't matter and is too rare because Lily Bolt would likely be in the record books... as the fastest human, let alone woman.  At the highest levels, where fractions of a second matter, it would seem to me to be consequential.

But these bills are directed at middle schools and high schools where the kids are less than 16-17 years old

[swansont]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Let's say Usain Bolt has had his bits snipped and tucked and is now 'Lily Bolt'. 

Or not, since that's a made-up example, not so different from the Mike Tyson example used in the OP. There is no evidence that Bolt is transgender, so they should not be used an example of someone who is.

 

This smacks of the tactic of appealing to emotion to scare people into a political position, seen in other arguments (I think we covered the arguments used against integrating sports in this or a similar thread) where you use an extreme case and offer it up as if it were typical.

[StringJunky]

49 minutes ago, swansont said:

Or not, since that's a made-up example, not so different from the Mike Tyson example used in the OP. There is no evidence that Bolt is transgender, so they should not be used an example of someone who is.

 

This smacks of the tactic of appealing to emotion to scare people into a political position, seen in other arguments (I think we covered the arguments used against integrating sports in this or a similar thread) where you use an extreme case and offer it up as if it were typical.

I have no anti-gay or transgender agenda. I'm quite ok with them.

2 hours ago, iNow said:

But these bills are directed at middle schools and high schools where the kids are less than 16-17 years old

It shouldn't matter in amateur situations but if a transgender youth is pro standard as an adult, then there will likely be issues, in terms of consistency from school level  to pro/international.

[swansont]

13 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

It shouldn't matter in amateur situations but if a transgender youth is pro standard as an adult, then there will likely be issues, in terms of consistency from school level  to pro/international.

We don't have consistency now in other areas as people transition from schools to the pro level, and international competition, so this doesn't seem like a reasonable standard. 

[Alex Mercer]

Cmon seriously, people saying at the start there are more than 2 genders? Wtf one has penis other vagina, and you can get surgery but still doesn't change how you were born. Also I think even scientists agree and swans agreed also that people born male are generally stronger than those born female so it makes it only fair with how the system of sport was made (category separation)  that they are separated and transgenders compete in what female/male category they were born in. Or if the system was different and categories didn't exist we could just have a bunch of females coming last all the time.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Or not, since that's a made-up example, not so different from the Mike Tyson example used in the OP. There is no evidence that Bolt is transgender, so they should not be used an example of someone who is.

 

This smacks of the tactic of appealing to emotion to scare people into a political position, seen in other arguments (I think we covered the arguments used against integrating sports in this or a similar thread) where you use an extreme case and offer it up as if it were typical.

Dude it's called a thought experiment

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, Alex Mercer said:

Cmon seriously, people saying at the start there are more than 2 genders? Wtf one has penis other vagina, and you can get surgery but still doesn't change how you were born.

I'm trying to think of a response that doesn't get me banned...

Until I come up with something better, I'd just like to suggest that you do some research before speaking on this matter again.

[Alex Mercer]

The problem is that people think of themselves too highly and think that not being a male or female or being a male when they are a born female and vice versa is some kind of statement to the world. I googled it and maybe there is some rare disease that mis shapes the penis or vagina but biologically you are either one. Isn't science about the concrete stuff you see through evidence (penis = man, vagina = woman) or is it just a floaty term we use that changes with society and we want to fit in society?

[swansont]

22 minutes ago, Alex Mercer said:

Cmon seriously, people saying at the start there are more than 2 genders? Wtf one has penis other vagina, and you can get surgery but still doesn't change how you were born. Also I think even scientists agree and swans agreed also that people born male are generally stronger than those born female so it makes it only fair with how the system of sport was made (category separation)  that they are separated and transgenders compete in what female/male category they were born in. Or if the system was different and categories didn't exist we could just have a bunch of females coming last all the time.

We've had discussions here about sex and gender. I know they exist and what the conclusions are, but I can't replicate the discussions themselves.

Suffice to say that I do know enough about physics and perhaps chemistry to know first-hand that these topics are far more complex than what gets discussed in high school and college, so it's not at all difficult for me to realize that biology is the same way.

IOW, it's nowhere near so simple as penis vs vagina. People just act like it is out of convenience and ignorance; i.e. because they can't or won't learn more.

 

 

Quote

Dude it's called a thought experiment

It sounds more like a "bogeyman under the sofa" drill

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, Alex Mercer said:

The problem is that people think of themselves too highly and think that not being a male or female or being a male when they are a born female and vice versa is some kind of statement to the world.

Please provide a citation. Otherwise people may jump to the conclusion that you are simply making things up to support your world view. I'm sure you don't want people to get the impression that you are uninformed and full of shit.

[Alex Mercer]

I don't see how it is some kind of scare tactic but ok I guess.

Just now, zapatos said:

Please provide a citation. Otherwise people may jump to the conclusion that you are simply making things up to support your world view. I'm sure you don't want people to get the impression that you are uninformed and full of shit.

If we had to cite everything that everyone ever said in this thread or in life then we wouldn't go anywhere. Some stuff you just have an opinion about, like generalizations of the world and people in it. You can call your opinion more educated than mine but there is flaws in it somewhere and at the end of the day it's basically just an opinion. 

 

But maybe I am full of shit, it's my opinion though.

[zapatos]

7 minutes ago, Alex Mercer said:

it's basically just an opinion. 

Please don't also share your opinions and generalizations about blacks, gays, Jews, women or anyone else who is different than you are.

[Alex Mercer]

I don't really have an opinion on  those people and I am just explaining the obvious about gender. Seems like genders that aren't either female or male are just labels society choose to create with the evolving times. If we talk about biological constructs of humans which I am pretty sure in science has states of either male or female then that is stating the obvious. What we think of ourselves doesn't matter in science. It's like saying I don't like gravity existing so I am going to say I am not bound by gravity. Unscientific.