Transgender athletes

[Phi for All]

19 minutes ago, Alex Mercer said:

I don't see how it is some kind of scare tactic but ok I guess.

It's similar to what we see when groups lobby for legislation that affects a small portion of businesses, but they use a big bogeyman company to make it scarier: "What if Amazon started doing this?"

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, Alex Mercer said:

What we think of ourselves doesn't matter in science.

Well, so much for biology, psychiatry, neurology, chemistry, medicine, etc.

Our brain function defines us every bit as much as our reproductive organ function.

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 hours ago, iNow said:

But these bills are directed at middle schools and high schools where the kids are less than 16-17 years old

Again. Elite female athletes cannot always compete equitably with 16 and 17 year old boys. The fastest female 100m runners in the World can be beat by some 16 year old boys.

 

4 hours ago, zapatos said:

I have no complaints against figuring out some equitable way to allow transgender athletes to compete. Science will help. Experience will help.

What bothers me is the people who have already decided that it is "unfair" and shouldn't be allowed. Well, unfair to cisgender people anyway; to hell with the transgender people.

This feels the same as the people who said gays getting married will destroy the institution of marriage, that women in the military will ruin the military, and that miscegenation will ruin our country.

Unfair to cisgender women. No amount of testosterone will allow the fastest women athletes to compete with the fastest men. It's not just about testosterone. (or simply willingness to identify)

This will be a failed experiment, hurting both cisgender females, and transgendered athletes who will likely be treated unfairly. 

Hopefully they will be treated as respectfully as possible...and the animus properly directed at the pseudo scientific idiocracy.

[zapatos]

13 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

This will be a failed experiment

Yes, you are one of the people I was referring to, who while sitting on the sideline with no particular expertise, has decided the fate of yet another minority group.

Edited July 1, 2021 by zapatos

[J.C.MacSwell]

12 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Yes, you are one of the people I was referring to, who while sitting on the sideline with no particular expertise, has decided the fate of yet another minority group.

 

On 3/8/2021 at 12:05 AM, zapatos said:

I'm often bad at interpreting what is behind people's comments. I should probably quit trying.

 

[MigL]

This is certainly NOT like gay marriage.
Gay marriage doesn't infringe on any one else's rights.

As JC has repeatedly pointed out, Trans athletes infringe on women's rights to fair competition. And there have been realistic examples given, Swansont; I posted one myself.
INow and Zapatos are willing to put the rights of those 6 people ( the number of trans athletes, he claims ) above the rights of more than 50% of Earth's population.
So, are we again  telling women they are not even second best to men, but actually also behind trans people ?
And Dimreepr seems to think that the only benefit from a 'game' is learning that others can compete with unfair advantages, so there is no point in actually playing.

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

INow and Zapatos are willing to put the rights of those 6 people ( the number of trans athletes, he claims )

The 6 I referenced were the cisgendered people that folks claim are facing unfair competition, not the number of trans athletes, though obviously there’s a correlation. It was also a number used for humor to convey a point than it was a precise count. 

[MigL]

Yes, I got the humor.
And was trying to perpetuate it 🙂

[Holmes]

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

This is certainly NOT like gay marriage.
Gay marriage doesn't infringe on any one else's rights.

As JC has repeatedly pointed out, Trans athletes infringe on women's rights to fair competition. And there have been realistic examples given, Swansont; I posted one myself.
INow and Zapatos are willing to put the rights of those 6 people ( the number of trans athletes, he claims ) above the rights of more than 50% of Earth's population.
So, are we again  telling women they are not even second best to men, but actually also behind trans people ?
And Dimreepr seems to think that the only benefit from a 'game' is learning that others can compete with unfair advantages, so there is no point in actually playing.

This is an excellent summary.

I recently asked if we should regard Rachel Dolezal as African American as she wants to be regarded using a similar justification to that used by a transgender person for being regarded as Women.

Then the question arose - how should we react to a white male who wants to be regarded as a black female?

Would we allow him to have the woman part of that "identity" but deny the black part?

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Holmes

[iNow]

Just now, Holmes said:

Then the question arose - how should we react to a white male who wants to be regarded as a black female?

Would we allow him to have the woman part but deny the black part

Why deny any of it? Race is a social construct. Also, more to the point, who cares?

[MigL]

Because cultural appropriation is frwned upon.
Gender appropriation seems not to be.

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

Why deny any of it? Race is a social construct. Also, more to the point, who cares?

There are some that would cry cultural appropriation.

[zapatos]

56 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

 

 

This time I didn't interpret your words, I based my statement on the literal words you used.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Just now, zapatos said:

This time I didn't interpret your words, I based my statement on the literal words you used.

Which ones literally stated I had no particular expertise?

 

[iNow]

Unsure why that earned a neg rep, but even in the face of cultural appropriation I wonder who cares 

[zapatos]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

As JC has repeatedly pointed out, Trans athletes infringe on women's rights to fair competition.

Usually we try an experiment prior to declaring it a failure. Your declaration that trans athletes are an infringement to fair competition is premature.

In golf they have ladies tees and handicaps. Why must we outlaw transgender competition prior to seeing if we can find a way to make it work?

[iNow]

I reckon you fellas do, tho. No worries. 

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Which ones literally stated I had no particular expertise?

 

 

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

This will be a failed experiment

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

So when the testosterone only (for Olympic athletes) and identity only (for High School athletes) fails...you admit I knew better than advocates of each?

 

[zapatos]

...

Edited July 1, 2021 by zapatos

[MigL]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Why must we outlaw transgender competition prior to seeing if we can find a way to make it work?

Considering this ...

Barbara Kay: Transgender weightlifter may expose the unfairness of trans athletes in Tokyo (msn.com)

and not golf, what exactly do you propose to make it work ?

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

you admit I knew better than advocates of each?

You are basing your expertise on guessing better than someone else?

[Holmes]

I propose four categories - M, F, MF and FM, then we can all move on and society can start functioning again.

We'd then have four types of bathrooms for categories in sports etc, life could be simple once more.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Holmes

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

Considering this ...

Barbara Kay: Transgender weightlifter may expose the unfairness of trans athletes in Tokyo (msn.com)

and not golf, what exactly do you propose to make it work ?

Well, NOT being an expert on transgender participation in sports, I am not willing to make that declaration, just as I would not have the hubris to tell you how to approach certain types of technical problems.

What I am willing to do is lend my support to a minority who is dumped on every day, so that they will be heard and not prematurely dismissed, and if possible, be able to compete with the rest of their fellow human beings.

[MigL]

Well, if we both agree that there is a problem, but we're not willing to propose solutions, what exactly are we discussing ?