Transgender athletes

[zapatos]

8 minutes ago, Holmes said:

How so? how is a person who voluntarily elects to become a trans-woman disadvantaged relative to a woman? 

 

Seriously. Just go away.

[MigL]

My choice of language is not as nuanced as yours, Zap; it has no hidden meanings.
Considering yourself a woman , if you are born male, is not a life choice, but undergoing surgery and hormone treatment is.
Doctors don't automatically do it; you have to decide and make the choice which affects your life. Hence life choice.
And since the surgery and treatment is what we are examining with respect to gender segregated sporting competitions, I think my use was accurate.

1 hour ago, iNow said:

No, you simply didn’t meet the threshold requirements. It’s no different than what I’m describing for sports. 

Being disabled is not a threshold requirement either.
But participating in thrilling activities, like flying a plane, or competing in recreational sports is not an essential. 
If your livelyhood comes from a cprofessional sport, obviously that is a problem that needs fixing.
( I have said that before )

As for this business about outdated definitions of men and women, I note no-one has addressed why we now need 47 definitions ( and growing ) of differing gender/sexual orientations ...

And I still fail to see how you guys can be so sensitive to the disadvantages faced by trans women in sporting competitions, yet completely ignore the disadvantages that puts cis women at in those same competitions.

Is trans the flavor of the month for social justice warriors ?
😄😄😄 I'm joking, really !

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Holmes said:

Like the right to choose to make oneself a member of a disadvantaged group?

Why do you choose to be right/left-handed?

This whole stance is analogous to asserting that everyone is right-handed, but some people just choose to use their left hand. Or vice-versa.

 

[studiot]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

And I still fail to see how you guys can be so sensitive to the disadvantages faced by trans women in sporting competitions, yet completely ignore the disadvantages that puts cis women at in those same competitions.

I'm neither sensitive nor insensitive.

It's just that I don't see why if I were to compete in an athletic sport I would suffer the disadvantage that someone 30 years or more my junior would win and I have to accept this.

But are you saying if a fit and healthy definitely and inarguably female competitor of that younger age were to come up against an similarly older trans person they would be at an unfair disadvantage.

Every competitor (except perhaps one but not always the same one) is at some disadvantage compared to other competitors.

[Holmes]

5 minutes ago, swansont said:

Why do you choose to be right/left-handed?

This whole stance is analogous to asserting that everyone is right-handed, but some people just choose to use their left hand. Or vice-versa.

 

I'm not sure that it is analogous Swanson, left-handed or right-handed is determined by my genes as is my sex.

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

Seriously. Just go away.

I suggest you do not express opinions publicly like this if you are unwilling for those opinions to be scrutinized or challenged.

[zapatos]

19 minutes ago, Holmes said:

I suggest you do not express opinions publicly like this if you are unwilling for those opinions to be scrutinized or challenged.

I don't consider your uneducated replies to my comments to be a challenge. They are instead a nuisance of the type I would expect from someone who still thinks it is 1970.

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Holmes said:

This is the strawman tactic at work,

Again, no. Just sloppy thinking from you.

When I say, “this argument reminds me of this other thing I’ve heard elsewhere,” it is NOT a strawman… but at least you’re consistent with your false assertions and misunderstandings. 

[zapatos]

3 hours ago, Holmes said:

This is the strawman tactic at work, clearly you can't control this habit and is the reason you've lost the privilege of engaging in conversation with me,

Seriously, it's time you look up the definition of straw man. 

 

[Holmes]

34 minutes ago, iNow said:

Again, no. Just sloppy thinking from you.

When I say, “this argument reminds me of this other thing I’ve heard elsewhere,” it is NOT a strawman… but at least you’re consistent with your false assertions and misunderstandings. 

You wrote:

Quote

 Same argument like we used to hear about people “choosing” to be gay. Such ridiculous thinking. 

You did not say "this argument reminds me of this other thing I’ve heard elsewhere", you seem to be making dishonest claims now. Read what you wrote, it's there above.

You did not attack or challenge the premises, logic or reasoning of my argument, instead you declare (but do not show) that my argument is logically equivalent to some other (unstated) argument and that other (unstated) argument is based on "ridiculous thinking" and so declare that my argument is therefore ridiculous.

This does meet the definition of a strawman, you can refuse to accept this fact, you can choose to deny reality, you may even really truly believe you did nothing wrong, but the facts are the facts.

My accusation that you are habitually posting strawman arguments is not sloppy thinking either, the evidence speaks for itself.

If you want to challenge my argument then challenge my argument not someone else's argument, please deal with what I actually write not what you wish I had written.

You need to understand iNow that if you post a strawman argument then an opponent has every right to challenge you and point this out, when I call out your use of strawman tactics I attack it for what it is, I quote what you have written, your own words reveal the truth about you.

The strawman tactic is an attempt to change the subject from one you are incapable of debating to something else that doesn't even need debating.

 

30 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Seriously, it's time you look up the definition of straw man. 

 

I'm always happy to see humor in a discussion and levity, but I do have a right in a rule based forum like this to call out strawman arguments, it is rude and insulting to use them.

This is a scientific themed discussion forum, formality and rigor are part of science.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Holmes

[iNow]

9 minutes ago, Holmes said:

You need to understand iNow that if you post a strawman argument then an opponent has every right to challenge you and point this out

Nobody has denied that. You’re simply wrong in your conclusion that I argued against a strawman.

But here we are yet again with you derailing a topic. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by iNow

[Holmes]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

Nobody has denied that. You’re simply wrong in your conclusion that I argued against a strawman 

No I am not.

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

But here we are yet again with you derailing a topic. 

Yet you are the source of the strawman not I, you are choosing to abandon the topic and sneakily introduce a different topic, it seems this is all you can do.

If you continue to do this at my expense, I'll continue to correct you.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Holmes

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Holmes said:

I'm not sure that it is analogous Swanson, left-handed or right-handed is determined by my genes as is my sex.

It is analogous in that it’s not a choice. (gender, like sexual orientation, might have more factors involved than simple genetics)

 

[Holmes]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

It is analogous in that it’s not a choice. (gender, like sexual orientation, might have more factors involved than simple genetics)

 

Fair enough but we now enter the realm of "free will" and all that that entails.

Do we ever actually choose anything? are our actions inevitable? 

But with the transgender stuff, I don't see how one can say "I feel like a woman" when one is a man. How can one recognize what a woman "feels like"? 

[studiot]

2 minutes ago, Holmes said:

But with the transgender stuff, I don't see how one can say "I feel like a woman" when one is a man. How can one recognize what a woman "feels like"? 

If you are not trans then you probably can't know what a trans person means by saying "I feel like a woman", though I can't say I have ever heard one use those words.

But then you can't know what an ovarian cyst feels like either.

So would you condemn a woman for having an ovarian cyst ?

[Holmes]

Just now, studiot said:

If you are not trans then you probably can't know what a trans person means by saying "I feel like a woman", though I can't say I have ever heard one use those words.

But then you can't know what an ovarian cyst feels like either.

So would you condemn a woman for having an ovarian cyst ?

Firstly I don't "condemn" anyone, transgender people included.

To say "I feel a like a woman" when you are a man is nonsensical I think.

Now if a transgender woman declares they are a transgender woman then how do they know? what reasoning do they go through that leads to the conclusion "I'm really a woman trapped in a man's body" what exactly is the reasoning?

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, Holmes said:

Now if a transgender woman declares they are a transgender woman then how do they know?

How do you know you’re a man, or not homosexual? It’s really no different. 

[MigL]

Other than Shania Twain, I've never heard anyone use those words either, Studiot.
But she looked fantastic when she did !

And before this thread gets bogged down in arguments regarding fallacies, rather than the OP ...

3 hours ago, studiot said:

Every competitor (except perhaps one but not always the same one) is at some disadvantage compared to other competitors.

I'm saying that if  a person who has a medical condition like extremely dry skin, and needs to soak in hydrating moisture all day, such that their skin is wrinkly like a 60 year old, decided he needed to compete against you in the over60 marathon and promptly left you 3 hours behind, you wouldn't think it was a fair race.

[CharonY]

15 minutes ago, Holmes said:

To say "I feel a like a woman" when you are a man is nonsensical I think.

As iNow mentioned, the way you feel is determined to a large degree by your biology. The way your body produces and responds to hormones, the number and variations of receptors and so on all influence why you feel like a man for example. But there is a spectrum, i.e. not all men are equally attracted (or at all) to women, for example. Most of the spectrum finds a range in two broad categories, but quite a few (around 1% of the population cluster more in the middle of the area, where the various biological inputs in aggregate do not fall into one of those neat categories.

To put it bluntly, you do not need to check what type your gonads are to feel a certain way. It all happens beyond the consciousness, which is why one cannot simply erase it. One can have separate discussion regarding how that impacts free will (and if Eise is around, it will be very interesting discussion), but I think you do realize that quite a few associated traits are quite hardwired (such as sexual preferences) and cannot be altered at will.

[Holmes]

26 minutes ago, iNow said:

How do you know you’re a man, or not homosexual? It’s really no different. 

That's not an answer to my question, its another question.

8 minutes ago, CharonY said:

As iNow mentioned, the way you feel is determined to a large degree by your biology. The way your body produces and responds to hormones, the number and variations of receptors and so on all influence why you feel like a man for example. But there is a spectrum, i.e. not all men are equally attracted (or at all) to women, for example. Most of the spectrum finds a range in two broad categories, but quite a few (around 1% of the population cluster more in the middle of the area, where the various biological inputs in aggregate do not fall into one of those neat categories.

To put it bluntly, you do not need to check what type your gonads are to feel a certain way. It all happens beyond the consciousness, which is why one cannot simply erase it. One can have separate discussion regarding how that impacts free will (and if Eise is around, it will be very interesting discussion), but I think you do realize that quite a few associated traits are quite hardwired (such as sexual preferences) and cannot be altered at will.

So if I said I feel like an owl feels, you'd believe me? 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Holmes

[CharonY]

8 minutes ago, Holmes said:

So if I said I feel like an owl, you'd believe me? 

This types of comments just indicate ignorance. Have you read the article I posted earlier? If you are not willing to educate yourself at least slightly on the matter and you basically keep trying to discuss form a position where the strength of the opinion far outweighs knowledge and only serves to derail the discussion.

The weak attempt to ridicule the situation really just makes it worse. If someone says they prefer women as sexual partners, do you doubt that? If someone says that they prefer men, do you doubt that? What do you think is the basis of that?

If you are not willing to accept the basic biology underlying these issues, I do not see a meaningful way to engage on that matter as you are discussing issues based on your personal reality.

Or try to answer answer my question before. What do you think makes you identify yourself as a man. Because someone told you so? Or is there something else. And if so, what could the something else be?

[Holmes]

20 minutes ago, CharonY said:

This types of comments just indicate ignorance.

That's an insult.

Quote

Have you read the article I posted earlier?

No.

Quote

If you are not willing to educate yourself at least slightly on the matter and you basically keep trying to discuss form a position where the strength of the opinion far outweighs knowledge and only serves to derail the discussion.

My disagreeing with you and some of the presumptions I see here in this thread is no justification for claiming I am not educated, my asking questions that you disapprove of does not give you the right to claim that I am derailing the discussion.

Quote

The weak attempt to ridicule the situation really just makes it worse. If someone says they prefer women as sexual partners, do you doubt that? If someone says that they prefer men, do you doubt that? What do you think is the basis of that?

I see, so you think we should censor such discussions, only tolerate opinions that are supportive of the transgender lobby.

Quote

If you are not willing to accept the basic biology underlying these issues, I do not see a meaningful way to engage on that matter as you are discussing issues based on your personal reality.

What biological facts have I not accepted? 

I asked the question about feeling like an owl to help make it more apparent how absurd the claim itself is. A man claiming to feel like a woman means he can recognize such feelings as feelings unique to women but since he is not a woman then how did he acquire an ability to recognize when his feeling are "woman feelings"?

How you feel is how you feel, it is personal, it is subjective by definition.

A biological male always feels like a biological male by definition, you can't feel like a man or feel like a woman, you just have feelings.

Two biological males may feel differently but they both feel like a biological male. 

To say "I feel like a woman" is to stereotype women.

Men and women have feelings, to say "I feel like a woman" is nonsensical, for example do I feel like a man or do I feel like a woman who feels like a man? 

If you want to discuss this subject then I suggest you stop insulting people with whom you might disagree, argue your case using logic and reason do not resort to emotional, inflammatory language.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Holmes

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Holmes said:

But with the transgender stuff, I don't see how one can say "I feel like a woman" when one is a man. How can one recognize what a woman "feels like"? 

“I don’t see” doesn’t make something untrue. It’s argument from incredulity.

 

[studiot]

40 minutes ago, Holmes said:

That's not an answer to my question,

Oh dear, I was going to say that about your answer to my last post.

But now you have taken my lines.

 

1 hour ago, Holmes said:

Firstly I don't "condemn" anyone, transgender people included.

I'm glad to hear you have repented.

1 hour ago, Holmes said:

To say "I feel a like a woman" when you are a man is nonsensical I think.

How is that relevent to my comment that I don't know what the phrase means?

1 hour ago, Holmes said:

Now if a transgender woman declares they are a transgender woman then how do they know? what reasoning do they go through that leads to the conclusion "I'm really a woman trapped in a man's body" what exactly is the reasoning?

That's more like what I said.

But you haven't commented on the fact that no man can feel whatever a woman suffering (and it can be great suffering) feels when she has an ovarian cyst.

48 minutes ago, MigL said:

I'm saying that if  a person who has a medical condition like extremely dry skin, and needs to soak in hydrating moisture all day, such that their skin is wrinkly like a 60 year old, decided he needed to compete against you in the over60 marathon and promptly left you 3 hours behind, you wouldn't think it was a fair race.

I don't understand what you are getting at here.

I must also confess my ignorance as to who Shania Twain is.

Edited July 5, 2021 by studiot
spelling

[zapatos]

15 minutes ago, Holmes said:

I see, so you think we should censor such discussions, only tolerate opinions that are supportive of the transgender lobby.

Now THAT'S a straw man! 

[Holmes]

Just now, zapatos said:

Now THAT'S a straw man! 

Yes, you're quite right actually, I accept that and retract the statement.