Transgender athletes

[iNow]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

I wonder if the fulcrum of your disagreement may lie at the degree to which traditional female sports are impacted. 

This is a component of our disagreement, but hardly the fulcrum. Rather, the fulcrum seems to be that I accept transgendered humans as the sex they identify with. JCM, however, seems not to.

He seems to see them as doing something wrong by “altering their chemistry” and “choosing to change” and even sometimes assumes nefarious motives suggesting that they’re intentionally trying to trick us so they can be more likely to win medals and plastic trophies when playing sports.

Now, this lack of acceptance gets couched in terms of “protecting cisgendered females,” but that strikes me as being a smokescreen composed of horseshit, especially since it’s not being compared against the scale and scope of other existing risks cisgendered female athletes face.

The fulcrum is that I and many others accept trans women as women and trans men as men, and this is subsequently why I have no problem whatsoever with them competing in women’s leagues or in men’s leagues based on how they identify. They are female and belong in the female league, and they are male so belong in the male league.

They are also human and deserve to be treated as such with dignity and acceptance. It’s that lack of acceptance that they truly are who they say they are and it’s the suggestion that cisgendered fairness must be prioritized over transgendered fairness which constitutes the fulcrum of our disagreement. 

 

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

INow said "Due to the risk that like 6 total female athletes MIGHT not win a cheap trophy or medal if we do so."  This suggests a Spockian "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few,  or the one" ethos,  which is often sensible, but here lacks foundation in establishing that a mere handful of cis women would be impacted.

Incorrect. The foundation is that more trans women are being harmed by their EX-clusion than cisgendered women are being harmed by their IN-clusion. The foundation is that I reject the underlying theme here that trans women somehow aren’t women and I reject the premise that fairness in sports is the actual concern underlying the opposition.

Any honest observer (honest with us and honest with themselves) can pretty easily recognize that this whole fairness in sports focus is disingenuous. Fairness in sports is merely being used as another regulatory cudgel to beat transgendered humans back into the shadows, to prevent them from getting too close to sociocultural activities that are part of our self-identities, and to remind them in yet another way (on top of the scores of other existing ways) that they are “different,” they are “other,” and they DON’T belong. 

I’m calling a spade a spade and suggesting it’s rather stupid and shortsighted to elevate this nebulous and arbitrary concept of athletic fairness above the very real and very meaningful concepts of social acceptance and understanding. This is about choosing to accept people for who and for what they are, even (especially?) in sports.

Edited July 11, 2021 by iNow

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

 

He seems to see them as doing something wrong by “altering their chemistry” and “choosing to change” and even sometimes assumes nefarious motives suggesting that they’re intentionally trying to trick us so they can be more likely to win medals and plastic trophies when playing sports.

 

You seem to think the worst motives of anyone who doesn't agree with your position.

I don't blame transgender athletes for choosing to change, or if adults "altering their chemistry". Altering their chemistry is between them and their doctor.

I do blame you, and your ilk, for forcing them to change their chemistry and/or incentivizing changing it, and for belittling the importance of female sports.

 

At the point a doctor is targeting an individual's chemistry to meet a rule rather than the best for the individuals health...they are no longer acting as a doctor.

1 hour ago, iNow said:

 

Any honest observer (honest with us and honest with themselves) can pretty easily recognize that this whole fairness in sports focus is disingenuous.

Unless of course...the observer actually watches sports.

I mean...you had no clue whatsoever at the start of this thread that the top Women's Soccer Team in the World (The US Team), most obviously a team of elite athletes, could be dominated by a top male teenage team.

You haven't observed jack.

Edited July 11, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

At the point a doctor is targeting an individual's chemistry to meet a rule rather than the best for the individuals health...they are no longer acting as a doctor.

And is this actually happening and is there ANY evidence confirming that it’s happening, or is this YET ANOTHER fear mongering fictional narrative being baselessly spouted by the folks who hold the opposite position from me on this topic?

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I do blame you, and your ilk, for forcing them to change their chemistry and/or incentivizing changing it, and for belittling the importance of female sports.

Let me be clear. I’m not belittling the importance of female sports. I’m belittling the importance of people who think transgendered females aren’t to be treated as females. 

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

you had no clue whatsoever at the start of this thread that the top Women's Soccer Team in the World (The US Team), most obviously a team of elite athletes, could be dominated by a top male teenage team.

At that informal scrimmage… it’s moot anyway since we’re not talking about males playing against females in sports. 

Thank you for reinforcing my central point so clearly that this is about you refusing to accept transgendered females as female. 

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

You haven't observed jack.

And sadly you refuse to see Jill. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by iNow

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

And is this actually happening and is there ANY evidence confirming that it’s happening, or is this YET ANOTHER fear mongering fictional narrative being baselessly spouted by the folks who hold the opposite position from me on this topic?

 

Yes. Have you read any of the links in this thread?

 

1 hour ago, iNow said:

 

At that informal scrimmage… it’s moot anyway since we’re not talking about males playing against females in sports. 

 

No. Not that one. That was against 15 year olds. I take that one with a grain of salt.

Formal games are played against teenagers. Age around 17 years old with the skill level chosen so the women won't be dominated. It happens in ice hockey also, regularly when getting ready to compete at the highest women's level.

We are talking about biological males competing against biological females. Can you not even admit that?

[zapatos]

16 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

We are talking about biological males competing against biological females.

There has been much talk surrounding this so just to be clear, for the sake of this discussion how are you defining biological males and biological females?

[J.C.MacSwell]

11 minutes ago, zapatos said:

There has been much talk surrounding this so just to be clear, for the sake of this discussion how are you defining biological males and biological females?

Those with XX chromosomes clearly biologically female. Those with XY chromosomes clearly biologically male.

Those with atypical chromosomes not at all clear.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Those with XX chromosomes clearly biologically female. Those with XY chromosomes clearly biologically male.

Those with atypical chromosomes not at all clear.

So XX and XY is where your focus is in this discussion? Is it safe to say you haven't necessarily made up your mind on competition wrt people with atypical chromosomes?

[J.C.MacSwell]

14 minutes ago, zapatos said:

 Is it safe to say you haven't necessarily made up your mind on competition wrt people with atypical chromosomes?

Yes. Except I don't believe they should be subjected to unhealthy drug protocols in order to compete.

Edited July 11, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Yes. Except I don't believe they should be subjected to unhealthy drug protocols in order to compete.

So, instead of an unhealty drug regime to become what they believe they are, they are given an unhealthy drug regime to treat their depression? 

[J.C.MacSwell]

16 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

So, instead of an unhealty drug regime to become what they believe they are, they are given an unhealthy drug regime to treat their depression? 

If someone wanted to live in your house, or they would be depressed, should they be given the right to live there?

Or do you have to say sorry, no, but wish them well?

 

[dimreepr]

19 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If someone wanted to live in your house, or they would be depressed, should they be given the right to live there?

Or do you have to say sorry, no, but wish them well?

 

There you go again, tap-dancing around a strawman.

[swansont]

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Those with XX chromosomes clearly biologically female. Those with XY chromosomes clearly biologically male.

Those with atypical chromosomes not at all clear.

 

Except this is not true. Reality is not this simple. 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

doctors have long known that some people straddle the boundary—their sex chromosomes say one thing, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) or sexual anatomy say another.

….

Gene mutations affecting gonad development can result in a person with XY chromosomes developing typically female characteristics, whereas alterations in hormone signalling can cause XX individuals to develop along male lines.

[dimreepr]

6 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Yes. Except I don't believe they should be subjected to unhealthy drug protocols in order to compete.

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If someone wanted to live in your house, or they would be depressed, should they be given the right to live there?

Or do you have to say sorry, no, but wish them well?

The NHS provide treatment for trans patients, so I'd imagine the ethics Committee are happy with it's efficacy. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Except this is not true. Reality is not this simple. 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

doctors have long known that some people straddle the boundary—their sex chromosomes say one thing, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) or sexual anatomy say another.

….

Gene mutations affecting gonad development can result in a person with XY chromosomes developing typically female characteristics, whereas alterations in hormone signalling can cause XX individuals to develop along male lines.

The fact that some individuals with XX chromosomes can have higher than typical testosterone, or other typically male advantages, is problematic, but that should not be used as a reason to include XY individuals in female sports.

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

The NHS provide treatment for trans patients, so I'd imagine the ethics Committee are happy with it's efficacy. 

Great. When are they moving them in?

Or wait...are they not moving them in? Are they considering your rights as well?

Edited July 11, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[dimreepr]

56 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Great. When are they moving them in?

Or wait...are they not moving them in? Are they considering your rights as well?

You're still dancing; why are you so certain, they're not welcome?

Every choice has a consequence, we just don't know what it is yet.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The fact that some individuals with XX chromosomes can have higher than typical testosterone, or other typically male advantages, is problematic, but that should not be used as a reason to include XY individuals in female sports.

To make this more explicit since you may have missed the importance of swansonts reply, XY individuals are ALREADY included in female sports because of the way sex chromosomes are expressed. You just don’t realize it / don’t care to fight against it / don’t think the rules need changing to exclude them.

The question then becomes: Since some individuals with XY chromosomes are already competing in female sports and you either don’t care or don’t notice them, then why spend so much time and energy focusing so intently on these XY chromosomes only when they belong instead to explicitly transgendered individuals?

Edited July 11, 2021 by iNow

[swansont]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The fact that some individuals with XX chromosomes can have higher than typical testosterone, or other typically male advantages, is problematic, but that should not be used as a reason to include XY individuals in female sports.

This particular link was to rebut your specific claim. This is not an acknowledgment of the error; this is moving the goalposts. There was no mention of testosterone or sports. The article doesn’t mention testosterone levels or sports.

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The fact that some individuals with XX chromosomes can have higher than typical testosterone, or other typically male advantages, is problematic, but that should not be used as a reason to include XY individuals in female sports.

The fact is, some people are better at some thing's; the problem is, some people can't accept that...

[zapatos]

9 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Those with XX chromosomes clearly biologically female. Those with XY chromosomes clearly biologically male.

 

Do you believe we should have a chromosome test, similar to drug testing, in order to ensure compliance? If not, how would you screen out transgender athletes?

[TheVat]

14 hours ago, iNow said:

 

Any honest observer (honest with us and honest with themselves) can pretty easily recognize that this whole fairness in sports focus is disingenuous. Fairness in sports is merely being used as another regulatory cudgel to beat transgendered humans back into the shadows, to prevent them from getting too close to sociocultural activities that are part of our self-identities, and to remind them in yet another way (on top of the scores of other existing ways) that they are “different,” they are “other,” and they DON’T belong. 

I’m calling a spade a spade and suggesting it’s rather stupid and shortsighted to elevate this nebulous and arbitrary concept of athletic fairness above the very real and very meaningful concepts of social acceptance and understanding. This is about choosing to accept people for who and for what they are, even (especially?) in sports.

"Any honest observer" is an argument fallacy similar to No True Scotsman.   If I disagree that a focus on fairness is disingenuous, or a cudgel,  then my disagreement has no merit because you've already ruled me as dishonest.   Surely you can see this is not the way to move me or anyone towards your position.  (FTR,  I accept all LGBT people for who they are,  to the point of speaking out publicly and joining street demonstrations, at various points in my life. )  

Fairness is central to sports,  as anyone who has ever attended or watched a sporting event knows.  If you are rooting for a team or person,  you want to know the playing field is level and that whoever won did so "fair and square. "  This lies at the very heart of sports,  and all games.   I see no supporting evidence from you that, because anti-trans bigotry does exist in society, the passion for fairness is all a cloak for that bigotry.   Nor do I see athletic fairness as "nebulous and arbitrary, " -- indeed,  when I used to watch a fair amount of ML baseball,  it struck me how precision-based and carefully defined the issues of fair play were.   Fans watch the umpires and league regulatory activities like ferocious and keen-eyed watchdogs.   

To use a concrete example, based on events in my state:  imagine you live in a small town,  which avidly follows the HS girls soccer team,  and your daughter plays.   She does well,  her team advances to the state finals.  She and her teammates, and her competitors, have all been cis-females.  They've worked hard developing skill and teamwork.  Then a team from the town of,  we'll call it Podunk,  suddenly rises from obscurity,  and starts winning every game (previously,  its seasons were painfully reminiscent of the 1962 NY Mets,  every year),  blasting its way towards the championship.  Your daughter and her team are annihilated by Podunk, as one spectacular player on the opposing team,  large, fast,  with unusual musculature and explosive strength,  scores again and again.   Several players,  including your daughter,  are injured in collisions with this girl's soccer superstar who,  at 6/3 and 210 pounds,  packs quite the inertia against players who average 5/6 and 125 pounds. 

Fans start asking questions.   They're not anti-trans,  they're not making any assumptions about doping,  or shady out-of-state recruiting of ringers,  or steroids.   They just sense something is not quite fair and they want to know why all games with Podunk are so glaringly lopsided.   My point is:  concern with fairness doesn't start with some sort of animus against trans people or lack of acceptance.  It starts with that basic human social animal hardwired instinct to ask if a competition is fair,  with well-matched competitors.   And that,  I hope,  also addresses your question earlier as to why people care so much about this topic.   

[zapatos]

As I'm researching this topic I ran across a story about Hanne Gaby Odiele, an XY model. It highlighted to me the difficulty of definitively declaring someone 'male' or 'female'.

https://nationalpost.com/news/0125-na-intersex

[iNow]

24 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Your daughter and her team are annihilated by Podunk, as one spectacular player on the opposing team,  large, fast,  with unusual musculature and explosive strength,  scores again and again.   Several players,  including your daughter,  are injured in collisions with this girl's soccer superstar who,  at 6/3 and 210 pounds,  packs quite the inertia against players who average 5/6 and 125 pounds. 

Oh, look! Yet another fictional narrative bogeyman with zero basis in reality. 

26 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Fairness is central to sports, 

I reject your premise that allowing transgendered females to compete in sports as female is unfair. 

43 minutes ago, TheVat said:

injured in collisions with this girl's soccer superstar who,  at 6/3 and 210 pounds,  packs quite the inertia

Am I the only one reminded by this comment of the “big scary black man” stereotype?

[TheVat]

INow,

Your out of context quotes seem not to address my actual points or examples.  I could suggest reading my post again,  bearing in mind that I'm trying to describe how actual sports fans approach issues of fair competition, but I can't tell if you're really open to that.   

As regards "I reject your premise that allowing transgendered females to compete in sports as female is unfair. "  this was not my premise.   Indeed,  prior posts of mine pointed out that some sports are finesse-based to where body mass,  fast-twitch muscle and aerobic capacity don't much matter.  Some sports are about endurance,  where size may even be a slight detriment.  But one can't simply duck the issues in sports where those physiological factors do matter,  and paste smiley-faced stickers of acceptance without looking at evidence. 

I am probably somewhere to the left of Bernie Sanders on some issues,  and it may turn out trans females can play fairly in almost all sports,  but that doesn't mean I can join in any cancellation of real questions and concerns people have about the physical disparity issues.   My offered scenario may prove to be a bogeyman,  but it's the right of anyone,  especially people with daughters in sports, to voice their concerns without being belittled or vilified.    Asking questions is where good science comes from, and I always have to put science before politics.   Always.   

Edited July 11, 2021 by TheVat
Typo

[swansont]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Your daughter and her team are annihilated by Podunk, as one spectacular player on the opposing team,  large, fast,  with unusual musculature and explosive strength,  scores again and again.   Several players,  including your daughter,  are injured in collisions with this girl's soccer superstar who,  at 6/3 and 210 pounds,  packs quite the inertia against players who average 5/6 and 125 pounds

You forgot the part where Podunk residents are socialists who teach critical race theory.

As long as we’re going to try and scare people with made-up scenarios. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

Do you believe we should have a chromosome test, similar to drug testing, in order to ensure compliance? If not, how would you screen out transgender athletes?

At the most competitive levels for many sports I don't know how you can avoid it, whether for direct screening or CY's suggestion of evaluating on a case by case basis.

At recreational levels I think it would be unnecessarily intrusive.

45 minutes ago, iNow said:

 

Am I the only one reminded by this comment of the “big scary black man” stereotype?

I certainly hope so.