Transgender athletes

[iNow]

4 hours ago, TheVat said:

If you could change "something which lacks parity, " to "something which could potentially lack parity in particular sports domains, " then I think you would be honoring science more

I’m fine with this. However, the onus of supporting / looking into that isn’t on me since I’m not the one suggesting parity lacks.

My stance is plain. Treat trans women as women and let them compete accordingly. End program. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Move on.

If regulations need to be updated to allow for that to be acceptable to the hordes of enlightened sports fans out there, then let’s do that, but for the love of Thor stopping standing in the way of transgendered equality in sports and otherwise. Be an ally, not an obstacle. 

[TheVat]

5 hours ago, swansont said:

Apologies here, too. Do you have a link?

I wanted to track this down, because I had gotten it second hand and in a form lacking details.   In fact,  I will demote my example,  pending more verification,  to "rumor from a small prairie town. "  Digging further, it looks like the governor (a conservative Republican) was alarmed by a case in Connecticut: between 2017 and 2019, transgender sprinters Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood combined to win 15 championship races, which prompted a lawsuit.   

It looks to me (and my apologies for not sifting through all this earlier) like the administration here did not actually find a well-documented case IN the state and so,  in its zeal to pander to RW evangelicals and the RW generally, battened on to the Connecticut case and began pestering the legislature.   It's all pretty thin,  given the major anomaly is two sprinters in one state who did win an unprecedented number of races.   

So it's me who should be making apologies,  to you and Zapatos.  If my bruising giant on the girl's field turns out to be urban legend (wait,  that's rural legend!),  then I will ask directions to the nearest wet market that stocks crow meat.   

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, TheVat said:

It looks to me (and my apologies for not sifting through all this earlier) like the administration here did not actually find a well-documented case IN the state and so,  in its zeal to pander to RW evangelicals and the RW generally, battened on to the Connecticut case and began pestering the legislature.   It's all pretty thin

Thank you for the follow-up. I’m completely unsurprised by your findings. Regardless, +1 for putting in the legwork on this

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

They are required to make testosterone targets. Drug regimes are required to do this in most cases often with unhealthy results.

 

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

Honest question, did you read any of that and if so how do you get to this interpretation. Are you aware what transition entails? I have the feeling that you work under a number of assumptions which are likely to be misunderstandings, but your comments are too cryptic to me to figure out where they are.

So here you go.

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

They are required to make testosterone targets. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#:~:text=In October 2019%2C World Athletics,the DSD (intersex) regulations.

"in October 2019, World Athletics changed the testosterone limit for transgender competitors, setting it at 5 nmol/L, from the previous 10 nmol/L, in order to bring it in line with the DSD (intersex) regulations"

(as an aside...biological females generally have levels much lower than that, but artificially increasing it would be against the rules, and 5 nmol/L is probably to high too high to limit the advantage, especially if just maintained for a year before competition)

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

 Drug regimes are required to do this in most cases...

WADA anti-doping agency:https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/tuec_transgender_version1.0.pdf

"Hormone therapy will be essential for the anatomical and psychological transition process in most transgender athletes."

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

... often with unhealthy results.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6628137/

Managing the risk of venous thromboembolism in transgender adults undergoing hormone therapy

"Venous thromboembolism (VTE) is a known risk of hormone therapy."

(note also the previous links with health concerns of  intersex athletes forced to meet the targets)

 

[dimreepr]

23 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The fact that some individuals with XX chromosomes can have higher than typical testosterone, or other typically male advantages, is problematic, but that should not be used as a reason to include XY individuals in female sports.

Great. When are they moving them in?

Or wait...are they not moving them in? Are they considering your rights as well?

The fact is, whatever their physiology, the only fair thing to do is, find a way to let them play. 

The talk in this thread about a woman's team with a trans-player advantage; It's not the winning side that cries foul (the losing team can take solice in the fact that no side can win forever).

And to answer your strawman/irrelevant question, they can move in when they need to, my rights are unaffected. 

6 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

 

So here you go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#:~:text=In October 2019%2C World Athletics,the DSD (intersex) regulations.

"in October 2019, World Athletics changed the testosterone limit for transgender competitors, setting it at 5 nmol/L, from the previous 10 nmol/L, in order to bring it in line with the DSD (intersex) regulations"

(as an aside...biological females generally have levels much lower than that, but artificially increasing it would be against the rules, and 5 nmol/L is probably to high too high to limit the advantage, especially if just maintained for a year before competition)

WADA anti-doping agency:https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/tuec_transgender_version1.0.pdf

"Hormone therapy will be essential for the anatomical and psychological transition process in most transgender athletes."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6628137/

Managing the risk of venous thromboembolism in transgender adults undergoing hormone therapy

"Venous thromboembolism (VTE) is a known risk of hormone therapy."

(note also the previous links with health concerns of  intersex athletes forced to meet the targets)

 

Then we need to find a better way of measuring; that represent's the least harmful outcomes for all concerned. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by dimreepr

[Intoscience]

7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

The fact is, whatever their physiology, the only fair thing to do is, find a way to let them play. 

The talk in this thread about a woman's team with a trans-player advantage; It's not the winning side that cries foul.

And to answer your strawman/irrelevant question, they can move in when they need to, my rights are unaffected. 

The winning team will mostly be biased in their own favour, this is natural.  Though in some sports, like golf for instance, where competitors are expected to self regulate, you do often get the true "sporting" persons who admit there rule breach and take the consequences accordingly. 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Intoscience said:

The winning team will mostly be biased in their own favour, this is natural.  Though in some sports, like golf for instance, where competitors are expected to self regulate, you do often get the true "sporting" persons who admit there rule breach and take the consequences accordingly. 

I've just edited that post with this: (the losing team can take solice in the fact that no side can win forever)

The point is, there's no advantage that can't be surmounted.

[Intoscience]

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I've just edited that post with this: (the losing team can take solice in the fact that no side can win forever)

The point is, there's no advantage that can't be surmounted.

Who lives forever...anyway...? (Queen - who wants to live forever).

We can't talk in terms of forever, only moments. The problem being that each moment can't be undone! So lets make sure each moment are the best they can possibly be, else there is no point to it all anyway.

 The universe doesn't care, that doesn't mean we shouldn't either. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Intoscience

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Intoscience said:

Nothing lasts forever...anyway... (Queen - who wants to live forever).

We can't talk in terms of forever, only moments. The problem being that each moment can't be undone! So lets make sure each moment are the best they can possibly be, else there is no point to it all anyway.

 The universe doesn't care, that doesn't mean we shouldn't either. 

Shouldn't that care extend to everyone; even if we don't like their choices?

If someone feels the need to cheat, to win; I think they need even more care, than someone who just wants to play the game...

[Intoscience]

11 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Shouldn't that care extend to everyone; even if we don't like their choices?

If someone feels the need to cheat, to win; I think they need even more care, than someone who just wants to play the game...

Absolutely, I agree with you on this. 

I don't have an issue with any person competing so long as "fair" play is maintained for everyone

 

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

I don't have an issue with any person competing so long as "fair" play is maintained for everyone

That's not possible, someone will allways have an advantage; all we can do is, play the game and accept the result...

[Intoscience]

18 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That's not possible, someone will allways have an advantage; all we can do is, play the game and accept the result...

That's why we have rules, limits and categories, to level the playing field as fairly as possible. Rules are then amended over time (hopefully) to improve the fairness further and or accommodate more categories etc... 

There's not always a "perfect" fair solution, just one that the majority accepts as the best it can be. 

Someone somewhere is always at an advantage/disadvantage, the trick is to determine if the advantage/disadvantage is deemed fair or not. If the vast majority are fairly treated then this is surely the best system?   

Edited July 12, 2021 by Intoscience
spelling

[dimreepr]

52 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Someone somewhere is always at an advantage/disadvantage, the trick is to determine if the advantage/disadvantage is deemed fair or not. If the vast majority are fairly treated then this is surely the best system?   

The trick is, to accept the result... 😉

[Intoscience]

12 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

The trick is, to accept the result... 😉

That's easy if the result is fair 🙂

[TheVat]

One afterthought.  If the area of sport has a large number of outliers among its cis players, e.g. plenty of tall people to stock a basketball team, plenty of high aerobic capacity people for running, etc., then you can have leagues where teams can be reasonably well matched against each other.  There would really be little difference between a cis girl who happens to be tall and aerobically stellar (just the type who would seek out a basketball team), and a trans teammate of similar attributes.  IOW, where there are plenty of players, it's quite likely trans players wouldn't really stand out or crush competition.  (IIRC, Scientific American did a feature on this topic, which reached that conclusion)

It would be rather in the "small pool," situation, where there's a small population to draw players from and the probabilities of finding outliers are smaller, that a single outlier (either cis or trans) would loom larger.   Which sounds like the storyline of dozens of small town sports movies.  The plucky local team goes up against the Bumfark Bruisers, who have Big Harrie, and all the Bruiser teammates have to do is pass to Big Harrie who stuffs the ball in 95% of the time.  The plucky locals must drawn upon their heart and character and cleverness to undermine Big Harry and beat the Bruisers.  (DISCLAIMER: this example is offered in a purely jocular vein, and has no redeeming discursive features)

 

[CharonY]

On 7/11/2021 at 12:48 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

They are required to make testosterone targets. Drug regimes are required to do this in most cases often with unhealthy results.

So, this part implies that they take drugs specifically to make a testosterone target for competition purposes. Your follow-up post does not really help me to further contextualize it and as such remains open to a number of interpretations.

So for example it could be read as if you are assuming that transgender folks are taking drugs to make competition targets. That of course is not the case, as transgender hormone treatment is part of their regular regimen with the aim to decrease testosterone levels. So considering that there are doing it anyway, there is no increased risk. Another interpretation is that you are generally objecting to hormonal therapy in principle. As such, I do not understand what your argument is aiming at.

I also have got issues with your other response to my earlier post, but maybe we can start here.

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

So, this part implies that they take drugs specifically to make a testosterone target for competition purposes.

They have two targets. 1. Optimal for health, presumably under a physicians care while weighing the risks, and 2, meeting the compulsory targets to be allowed to compete.

If 2, is already achieved during times they've met 1 they aren't taking drugs to make a testosterone target for competition purposes.

If they meet 1 first they have to decide whether to continue/increase dose/do what it takes to make compliance. They have to decide whether they want to take drugs for competition purposes.

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

 

So for example it could be read as if you are assuming that transgender folks are taking drugs to make competition targets.

Yes. I'm that some would do that. No. I'm not assuming all transgender folks would do that.

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

That of course is not the case...

as per above there will be cases of it

 

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

...as transgender hormone treatment is part of their regular regimen with the aim to decrease testosterone levels. So considering that there are doing it anyway, there is no increased risk.

You're the biology expert. Can you not see the flaw in that statement?

Some will be at increased risk.

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

Another interpretation is that you are generally objecting to hormonal therapy in principle. As such, I do not understand what your argument is aiming at.

 

To paraphrase Zap...Give me a friggin' break...

[CharonY]

6 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

They have two targets. 1. Optimal for health, presumably under a physicians care while weighing the risks, and 2, meeting the compulsory targets to be allowed to compete.

If 2, is already achieved during times they've met 1 they aren't taking drugs to make a testosterone target for competition purposes.

If they meet 1 first they have to decide whether to continue/increase dose/do what it takes to make compliance. They have to decide whether they want to take drugs for competition purposes.

Yes. I'm that some would do that. No. I'm not assuming all transgender folks would do that.

as per above there will be cases of it

 

You're the biology expert. Can you not see the flaw in that statement?

Some will be at increased risk.

To paraphrase Zap...Give me a friggin' break...

Do you have evidence that folks would increase their regimen beyond their recommended dosages? Also note that typical  targets during transitions are typically below competition thresholds  from what I have seen. So if their transition is well adjusted,  their levels should be below those thresholds.  If levels are that high usually treatment continues until they fall in the typical female range.

If I understand you correctly,  you just assume that folks would overdose? If that has not been reported, we would arguing a strawman here.

Also, do you understand  the concept of *increased* risk? If someone is taking medication for transition, which element increases their risk beyond base level?

Finally, it seems that the rest of the thread  was arguing about the increases performance and testosterone levels and now the issue is that they are taking too much drugs to reduce their levels? Is there anything they are allowed  to do?

 

[MigL]

7 hours ago, CharonY said:

If I understand you correctly,  you just assume that folks would overdose? If that has not been reported, we would arguing a strawman here.

You make it sound like you've never heard of people ( men and women ) doping with HGH to obtain unfair advantages at Olympic, or other world class, competitions. How many citations do you want ???

Why assume trans gendered would be any different ?

[dimreepr]

20 minutes ago, MigL said:

You make it sound like you've never heard of people ( men and women ) doping with HGH to obtain unfair advantages at Olympic, or other world class, competitions. How many citations do you want ???

Why assume trans gendered would be any different ?

Indeed, but why assume they aren't?

It reminds me of the impact of Jonah Lomu

[J.C.MacSwell]

15 hours ago, CharonY said:

 

Also, do you understand  the concept of *increased* risk? If someone is taking medication for transition, which element increases their risk beyond base level?

 

 

Apparently you don't. What part of the concept of a physician weighing the risks/rewards of drug prescription don't you understand?

Targeting optimal health vs an arbitrary "one size fits all" rule are not the same thing.

Leaning on the fact that in many cases they could be means you simply don't understand the problem.

15 hours ago, CharonY said:

If I understand you correctly,  you just assume that folks would overdose? If that has not been reported, we would arguing a strawman here.

We know that folks overdose.  Intersex athletes are compelled to by the current rules. (They aren't cheating IMO, nor do I feel they are fully responsible for any adverse health risks they assume). And of course as MigL pointed out...many folks cheat.

Edited July 13, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[CharonY]

23 hours ago, MigL said:

You make it sound like you've never heard of people ( men and women ) doping with HGH to obtain unfair advantages at Olympic, or other world class, competitions. How many citations do you want ???

Why assume trans gendered would be any different ?

For starters, because how the drugs work. As part of the transition you take estrogen and androgen blockers. If dosed correctly, testosterone values settle around levels of cisgender women. These drugs also eventually reduce performance. So how would cheating look like? Do you mean they fake transition and only take just enough to dip that they barely fall into the women's bracket without losing too many advantages? I have a hard time following the actually proposed scenario here.

I also have no idea what the one size fits all refers too. Transition is a medical process controlled by the physician following best practices. Do you mean to say that instead of taking what their MD describes folks instead aim for arbitrary competition levels? You know that we are still talking about a medical procedure to address a specific condition (e.g. gender dysphoria). How about you spell out exactly what you think a transgender person is actually doing instead of making insinuations and make me guess. I try to be clear and tend to provide references but I do not feel I am getting anything back here.

[J.C.MacSwell]

7 hours ago, CharonY said:

I also have no idea what the one size fits all refers too. Transition is a medical process controlled by the physician following best practices. Do you mean to say that instead of taking what their MD describes folks instead aim for arbitrary competition levels? You know that we are still talking about a medical procedure to address a specific condition (e.g. gender dysphoria). How about you spell out exactly what you think a transgender person is actually doing instead of making insinuations and make me guess. I try to be clear and tend to provide references but I do not feel I am getting anything back here.

I think they are all doing different things, from surgery and/or drug regimes to nothing at all. You think they are all doing the same thing, and to the same degree?

Edited July 14, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I think they are all doing different things, from surgery and/or drug regimes to nothing at all. You think they are all doing the same thing, and to the same degree?

Nope, if you closely read what I was writing I said that "Transition is a medical process controlled by the physician following best practices. ". I.e. the physician works with the patient and figures out a process that works for them.

However, as we are discussing transgender athletes and specifically testosterone has been mentioned a couple of times it is rather clear that we are talking about folks who have undergone some form of hormone therapy. For example, folks only taking psychological counseling would obviously not lower their testosterone levels by that. 

And again, there are well-established regimens and targets for folks undergoing transgender hormone therapy which is done in close supervision with their physicians. Only if the therapy holds, do testosterone levels remain suppressed in the range corresponding to their transition targets.

So it is generally not something folks can just toy around with, and especially unlikely in feminizing treatment as overdosing does not provide a performance boost as in doping (the opposite, actually) and on top can have side effects if not carefully managed. But again, that is something a transgender person agrees to do to address issues such as clearly diagnosed gender dysphoria. 

So again, do you think that there are folks that are mainly just transitioning for the purpose in dropping into an easier competition bracket?

 

 

[MigL]

9 hours ago, CharonY said:

I try to be clear and tend to provide references but I do not feel I am getting anything back here.

I know that feeling ...
You of all people should know that hormones have cumulative effects.
A male who goes through puberty with male testosterone levels will have a deeper ribcage, enabling higher lung capacity and endurance. They will have wider shoulders and narrower hips, enabling faster running and better leverage for pressing/pushing motions.
They will have different body fat levels ( to lean muscle mass ), and body areas where it is deposited.
They will have different amounts,  and placement, of 'fast twitch' and 'slow twitch' muscle fibers ( like red and white chicken meat ) optimizing for different levels of explosive strength vs. endurance.
And many others.

Hormone therapy ( estrogen and androgen blockers ) will not change these 'structural' features, later on in life.

9 hours ago, CharonY said:

Do you mean they fake transition and only take just enough to dip that they barely fall into the women's bracket without losing too many advantages?

That's one possible scenario.
Another is that they take their medication as prescribed, but before a competition, increase their testosterone levels ( through the use of HGH ) to the maximum allowed by the sport's regulating body, so that they come in on the extreme end of the bell curve, and are 'legal'.
Other cis women don't have that option because any HGH levels will be identified as cheating and call for disqualification.

Again, I am considering males who transition to female only, as that is the unfair situation faced by cis women.

Edited July 14, 2021 by MigL