Transgender athletes

[zapatos]

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

Another is that they take their medication as prescribed, but before a competition, increase their testosterone levels ( through the use of HGH ) to the maximum allowed by the sport's regulating body, so that they come in on the extreme end of the bell curve, and are 'legal'.
Other cis women don't have that option because any HGH levels will be identified as cheating and call for disqualification.

Again, I am considering males who transition to female only, as that is the unfair situation faced by cis women.

Do you believe that since there are people who will cheat, that justifies not allowing transgender women to compete?

If not I'm unsure of the significance of pointing out that people can and will cheat. That is a universal given.

[J.C.MacSwell]

46 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Nope, if you closely read what I was writing I said that "Transition is a medical process controlled by the physician following best practices. ". I.e. the physician works with the patient and figures out a process that works for them.

I read it. One could hope that's always true, or, when making rules, put measures in place to make sure that's always the case. 

But is that your best explanation to:

10 hours ago, CharonY said:

How about you spell out exactly what you think a transgender person is actually doing instead of making insinuations and make me guess. 

How is your "Transition is a medical process controlled by the physician following best practices." any less vague than:

On 7/12/2021 at 8:24 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

... 1. Optimal for health, presumably under a physicians care while weighing the risks... 

Other than my clearly pointing out that it was not the only option, as did MigL.

 

24 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Do you believe that since there are people who will cheat, that justifies not allowing transgender women to compete?

Certainly not for that reason on it's own.

 

24 minutes ago, zapatos said:

If not I'm unsure of the significance of pointing out that people can and will cheat. That is a universal given.

CY has yet to concede that with regard to transgenders. In fact he seemed appalled that we would even consider it.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[zapatos]

30 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Certainly not for that reason on it's own.

 

Is the potential cheating by transgenders any more troubling than potential cheating by cis-genders? For instance, will it be easier do you think?

[J.C.MacSwell]

11 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Is the potential cheating by transgenders any more troubling than potential cheating by cis-genders? For instance, will it be easier do you think?

There are a number of ways transgenders can work the current system. I'm not one to call them cheaters if they take advantage of them.

I will question the rule makers for their short sightedness, especially if it was agenda driven rather than simple incompetence.

Edited July 15, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

There are a number of ways transgenders can work the current system. I'm not one to call them cheaters if they take advantage of them.

There are a number of ways cis-genders can work the current system. Do you think one group is a bigger risk than the other?

[J.C.MacSwell]

17 minutes ago, zapatos said:

There are a number of ways cis-genders can work the current system. Do you think one group is a bigger risk than the other?

Cis genders are at risk of other cis genders working the system or cheating, and from transgenders doing the same, or being left at an advantage even without any competitor doing anything immoral or questionably so.

The same could be said of the risks for transgenders, being left with cis genders at an advantage.

edit: changed a comma position

Edited July 15, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[zapatos]

I'll take that as a 'no'.

[J.C.MacSwell]

To CY: Say you are a National team coach and (don't ask me how) climate change depends on your athletes winning medals...

I'm sure you could think of many ways the current system could be exploited. I'm not sure you would use them...but I'm damn sure you would be well aware of them.

 

38 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I'll take that as a 'no'.

Why?

[zapatos]

34 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Why?

Because you would not answer me directly, twice, so I did my best to interpret what you were saying.

[MigL]

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

If not I'm unsure of the significance of pointing out that people can and will cheat. That is a universal given.

Hence the need for rules, to preserve fairness.

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

Hence the need for rules, to preserve fairness.

Another universal given.

[J.C.MacSwell]

8 hours ago, zapatos said:

Because you would not answer me directly, twice, so I did my best to interpret what you were saying.

The current rules using testosterone measurement alone to attempt to minimize male advantages favours transgenders, as a group. Especially with the maximum allowed being well above cis gender averages.

Whether it favours any given athlete is another question entirely (not that you asked that), but one CY has suggested can be answered on a case by case basis.

I see that as a potential s...show, on a scale that would make a French figure skating judge blush...

Edited July 15, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The current rules using testosterone measurement alone to attempt to minimize male advantages favours transgenders, as a group. Especially with the maximum allowed being well above cis gender averages.

Whether it favours any given athlete is another question entirely (not that you asked that), but one CY has suggested can be answered on a case by case basis.

I see that as a potential s...show, on a scale that would make a French figure skating judge blush...

And round and round we go.

There will always be someone who has an advantage in any given sport, Jonah Lomu for instance.

As long as they don't cheat to gain that advantage they should be allowed to play, it's only when they cheat that it becomes unfair; we can mitigate against that with regulation, but it's never going to be perfect.

Just because you suspect one trans athlete's motive's, doesn't give you the right to condemn them all; sport is an artificial simulation of life and we all have a right to play, prior to a conviction. 

[MigL]

Cheating implies circumventing rules.
Your solution ...
Have no rules, so there are no cheaters.

Yeah, that seems fair 🙄 !

[J.C.MacSwell]

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

And round and round we go.

There will always be someone who has an advantage in any given sport, Jonah Lomu for instance.

As long as they don't cheat to gain that advantage they should be allowed to play, it's only when they cheat that it becomes unfair; we can mitigate against that with regulation, but it's never going to be perfect.

Just because you suspect one trans athlete's motive's, doesn't give you the right to condemn them all; sport is an artificial simulation of life and we all have a right to play, prior to a conviction. 

I haven't suspected any trans athletes motives, nor do I condemn any of them for wanting to play.

 

[naitche]

I think some of us just see equal Human beings, despite our diversity.

Where others see  Statehoods unequal to their ideal of Humanity.

 

[naitche]

On 7/16/2021 at 11:38 PM, naitche said:

I think some of us just see equal Human beings, despite our diversity. 

The value is Subjective. To Environment. Achievable through recognition of diversity, and increasing environment/potentials.

On 7/16/2021 at 11:38 PM, naitche said:

Where others see  Statehoods unequal to their ideal of Humanity.

 

The value is Objective, to Environment. So a reductive measure towards a fixed and uniform state.

 

[iNow]

On 7/14/2021 at 5:16 PM, MigL said:

Again, I am considering males who transition to female only, as that is the unfair situation faced by cis women

Perhaps part of the reason this sometimes feels more like an attack on transgendered humans instead of a defense of fairness in sports is the fact that you’re not equally concerned with the lack of fairness females transitioning to males will also face when entering male sports. Food for thought. 

[MigL]

56 minutes ago, iNow said:

you’re not equally concerned with the lack of fairness females transitioning to males

Why would I be ?
They are not making the compettion unfair for everyone else in that catagory.
Granted it is unfair to themselves because of their situation, but it is not their 'right' to infringe on the 'rights' of others.

I certainly would not demand that my tennis opponent has to wear a patch over one eye, just because I lost vision in one of mine.

[J.C.MacSwell]

10 hours ago, iNow said:

Perhaps part of the reason this sometimes feels more like an attack on transgendered humans instead of a defense of fairness in sports is the fact that you’re not equally concerned with the lack of fairness females transitioning to males will also face when entering male sports. Food for thought. 

If you had an elite biologically female athlete that transgendered to male you could give them an X metre distance stationary head start in a race against cis gender males. X might be the distance Flo-Jo was from the finish line after 9.49 seconds (9.49 seconds being Usain Bolts WR) during her 10.49 second WR run, after allowing that she didn't plan her race to finish at that point.

That might not be a satisfactory way to include them, but would be much more accurate and objective than anything based on the allowance or encouragement of unnatural use of performance enhancing or de-enhancing drugs and trying to judge what the effects might be, or what the motivation might be for using more or less of them.

It might not be satisfactory...in part because it might threaten male sports, slight as it may be in comparison to the current threat to female sports (from the current rule makers).

Edited July 19, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

It might also be irrelevant since this issue reeks of unconscious transphobia and sounds absolutely nothing like warriors striving for athletic fairness. 

[naitche]

I do not understand what is 'transphobic' in acknowledging, recognizing and accepting differences as part of a shared human identity.

As if equality is something that does not exist while diversity is recognized, so  that a recognition of our shared Humanity can be achieved  only if we blind ourselves to it, or mask it by altering our language to so  its unable to express diversity.

 

[Intoscience]

18 hours ago, iNow said:

Perhaps part of the reason this sometimes feels more like an attack on transgendered humans instead of a defense of fairness in sports is the fact that you’re not equally concerned with the lack of fairness females transitioning to males will also face when entering male sports. Food for thought. 

I don't see anyone attacking transgender people, so not sure where you get that impression. I see folk arguing the "possibility" that transgender women athletes may hold a natural advantage over cis-gender women athletes. I think this is a fair argument to have, at least until it is proven one way or another whether it holds true. 

MigL pointed this out quite clearly when he stated the development of young males during puberty and how their bodies develop specifically for increased strength and endurance. Which stems back 100's of thousands of years in evolution, likely due to the males going out to do the hunting etc, while the females nurtured and protected the young. So it was natural that their respective bodies require different attributes for survival.

Now we have sports this difference, especially at the elite level, becomes quite obvious and depending on the discipline there can be a large advantage/disadvantage between cis gender sexes. Which is why there is a male and female category and rules within the categories, all in an attempt to give everyone a fair and equal opportunity to compete. 

There will always be cheaters and there will always be dominate competitors, this is a given. The argument is not whether transgender people are cheating. Cheating implies a clear intention to gain an advantage over others by breaking the rules of competition. The argument is whether a transgender woman has a significant "natural" evolutionary advantage over cis-gender women that could result in unfair competition. 

This doesn't mean that transgender people should be discriminated against, on the contrary. It means that "if" its a problem (I'm not advocating it is since I'm not a performance biology expert)then it should be addressed so that no one is left at an unfair disadvantage or discriminated against for an advantage. 

Some are arguing there is most likely an advantage over cis gender females, others are arguing there isn't anything conclusive to prove this to be the case. This is a fair discussion and argument, its not an attack on the sexes and identities of people. 

Oh, then you have the odd one who argues it all doesn't matter and it should just be a free for all. Well then we may as well just scrap competition altogether. Which would be a step backwards in my opinion! Competition (especially sporting competition) is a great way to control natural aggression, its good for mental wellbeing, as well as for physical well being. It teaches discipline and structure and gives people a goal to strive towards and a purpose, all positive things for humanity.   

[TheVat]

9 hours ago, iNow said:

It might also be irrelevant since this issue reeks of unconscious transphobia and sounds absolutely nothing like warriors striving for athletic fairness. 

The fact that all these issues are being discussed openly here suggests that any negative prejudices regarding trans people are likely to be reduced or at least made more conscious,  if the unconscious aspect is a concern.  A prejudice that one is conscious of is a prejudice who negative effects can be mitigated,  in my experience.  

I think "phobia" is sometimes misused as a suffix.   Many prejudices do not result in an incapacitating fear, but do result in a warped perception of others.  It's worth looking at the DSM-5 to get a clear understanding of what phobia means,  compared to other terms like aversion or bias.  

[naitche]

8 hours ago, iNow said:

It might also be irrelevant since this issue reeks of unconscious transphobia and sounds absolutely nothing like warriors striving for athletic fairness. 

It could be as easily said that your insistence a trans woman must be either Male or Female to be recognized demeans the very idea of diversity.