Transgender athletes

[iNow]

17 minutes ago, naitche said:

your insistence a trans woman must be either Male or Female to be recognized demeans the very idea of diversity

I’m okay with that. 

Tho please note that I reject the underlying premise that my advocacy for accepting trans women as women and trans men as men “demeans the very idea of diversity.” Lol

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

It means that "if" its a problem (I'm not advocating it is since I'm not a performance biology expert)then it should be addressed so that no one is left at an unfair disadvantage or discriminated against for an advantage. 

Your use of the word “if” here is the sticking point for me. I agree with your basic logic, but I’m not seeing that approach in obvious display here. Instead, we seem to have lots of preconceived conclusions about trans women having advantages in sport which then go in search of data supporting those conclusions (or don’t seek that data at all, in fact). That’s different than having uncertainty on a topic then neutrally searching for data which can clarify it… with no bias toward any specific outcome.

Summarized: The sense of unfairness is being assumed as a starting premise, not left as a mere hypothesis or possibility seeking rejection or reinforcement. 

And I know these guys with whom I’m interacting in this thread. They’re good people and it’s not my intent to besmirch their character. We’ve argued and agreed scores of times through the years. I am, however, highlighting these possible biases in their thinking and even gave them the benefit of the doubt by calling these potential biases unconscious. If that’s enough to warrant all of the neg reps, then so be it. You’ll always know where you stand with me, even if you don’t like where that is. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by iNow

[naitche]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

 

And I know these guys with whom I’m interacting in this thread. They’re good people and it’s not my intent to besmirch their character. We’ve argued and agreed scores of times through the years. I am, however, highlighting these possible biases in their thinking and even gave them the benefit of the doubt by calling these potential biases unconscious. If that’s enough to warrant all of the neg reps, then so be it. You’ll always know where you stand with me, even if you don’t like where that is. 

This is appreciated. Tho' It does appear you've made assumptions of your own

And for the record, I do not neg rep.

[J.C.MacSwell]

7 hours ago, iNow said:

And I know these guys with whom I’m interacting in this thread. They’re good people and it’s not my intent to besmirch their character. We’ve argued and agreed scores of times through the years. I am, however, highlighting these possible biases in their thinking and even gave them the benefit of the doubt by calling these potential biases unconscious. If that’s enough to warrant all of the neg reps, then so be it. You’ll always know where you stand with me, even if you don’t like where that is. 

I could do the same thing. I could suggest you have biases against minorities of your own, know that it's wrong, and are over compensating.

...or we could stick to the science and only call out racism, transphobia, etc. when it actually appears.

[iNow]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I could do the same thing. I could suggest you have biases against minorities of your own, know that it's wrong, and are over compensating

Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps I am overcompensating for my own biases and trying to right various wrongs, but you know what? I’d rather overcompensate toward the side of inclusion and acceptance of those already marginalized and violently targeted on a daily basis instead of adding to the already rampant problems of needless exclusion and discrimination these marginalized groups are facing. I’d rather overcompensate and help bend the arc of history toward justice any day of the week and twice on Tuesday’s.  

[MigL]

OK, it's Tuesday ...
You must be doubly overcompensating 😄 .

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

33 minutes ago, iNow said:

Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps I am overcompensating for my own biases and trying to right various wrongs, but you know what? I’d rather overcompensate toward the side of inclusion and acceptance of those already marginalized and violently targeted on a daily basis instead of adding to the already rampant problems of needless exclusion and discrimination these marginalized groups are facing. I’d rather overcompensate and help bend the arc of history toward justice any day of the week and twice on Tuesday’s.  

+1. That's why despite all your crap...we still love you...

[iNow]

🍻 

[naitche]

21 hours ago, iNow said:

It might also be irrelevant since this issue reeks of unconscious transphobia and sounds absolutely nothing like warriors striving for athletic fairness. 

I did not see the major players in this thread discredit the Humanity of Trans Women in such a way as this. Food for thought?

2 hours ago, iNow said:

Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps I am overcompensating for my own biases and trying to right various wrongs, but you know what? I’d rather overcompensate toward the side of inclusion and acceptance of those already marginalized and violently targeted on a daily basis instead of adding to the already rampant problems of needless exclusion and discrimination these marginalized groups are facing. I’d rather overcompensate and help bend the arc of history toward justice any day of the week and twice on Tuesday’s.  

I could admire this sentiment if I thought it could have a positive out come, but every thing I see says attempting objective measures of  Human conditions is not possible with out exclusion.

That Critical Theory in practice  is not anti racism or anti bigotry at all, just more of the same with a vengeance. More dangerous for its lack of focus. It discredits all of Humanity. There will be loss. Without focus, that doesn't allow you see whats being excluded.

It scares hell out of me. I have observed the same thing in The pedigree Dog Registries and its subtly devastating to the subject. Applying negative values and expecting a positive out come.

Your arguments are contradictory because they flip from from objective to subjective depending on what best supports them.

Edited July 21, 2021 by naitche

[Intoscience]

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

+1. That's why despite all your crap...we still love you...

 A sentiment I also share 😊

Edited July 21, 2021 by Intoscience
spelling

[iNow]

12 hours ago, naitche said:

Your arguments are contradictory because they flip from from objective to subjective depending on what best supports them.

That doesn’t render them contradictory. It shows that they are multifaceted and layered, not simplistic but nuanced and representative of numerous perspectives. This is an important difference of which you should take note. 

12 hours ago, naitche said:

It scares hell out of me

Thanks for sharing. I wish you well with your anxieties. 

[naitche]

15 hours ago, iNow said:

That doesn’t render them contradictory.

I think it does when you say Human conditions like sex can't be defined by objective measures

while  assuming their application to your subject. ie oppressed and oppressor.

Quote

It shows that they are multifaceted and layered, not simplistic but nuanced and representative of numerous perspectives. This is an important difference of which you should take note. 

Representative of numerous perspectives when applying subjective values, yes.

It is an important difference that plays a huge role in biological/social structures in assigning values.

Starting with an objective premise creates margins and an expectation of their maintenance to uphold the objective entity/identity thus recognized. It corrupts the language of our biology to maintence of an objective structure as essential to any further direction.

Like faith. It creates that bias.

The gymnastics of a logic in applying objective value to a subjective and expecting an integrated whole I  can believe must be very nuanced, multifaceted and layered.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by naitche

[naitche]

Contradictory in your indirect appeal to the virtue of a place in Humanity,

For those not equally invested  in this structure bias. 

Regardless of our subjective, lived experience.

The original objective premise is the incorrect application of value, no matter the motive.

It assumes a fixed structure. Accepts that as part of our subjective being.

Edited July 22, 2021 by naitche

[naitche]

So that a black woman who stands in front of congresss and declares she is not oppressed and won't accept that label becomes a 'Racists wet dream' and an enemy of her shared humanity.

Edited July 22, 2021 by naitche

[iNow]

Is there something in all of that mess to which you expect me to respond?

[Area54]

On 7/21/2021 at 12:44 AM, iNow said:

Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps I am overcompensating for my own biases and trying to right various wrongs, but you know what? I’d rather overcompensate toward the side of inclusion and acceptance of those already marginalized and violently targeted on a daily basis instead of adding to the already rampant problems of needless exclusion and discrimination these marginalized groups are facing.

Excellent. May I count on your support for the small, oft excluded and, frankly, never even recognised group of Balding Britons with Bad Breath, Big Bellies and Boring Biographies?

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Area54 said:

Excellent. May I count on your support for the small, oft excluded and, frankly, never even recognised group of Balding Britons with Bad Breath, Big Bellies and Boring Biographies?

Sadly, no. They’re not members of a protected class, and instead are pretty representative of those who’ve wielded the majority of power and wealth and opportunity for many centuries. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

Sadly, no. They’re not members of a protected class, and instead are pretty representative of those who’ve wielded the majority of power and wealth and opportunity for many centuries. 

In their defence...Britannia would not have ruled the waves without them...

(that is in their defence...isn't it?)

[MigL]

Any solution that encourages unfairness to one group, so as to make life more fair for another group, should be a non-starter.
A bit of 'the end justifies the means' has never worked out well.

PS.   I'm not British, balding or overweight, brush and use Listerine twice a day, and have had a fairly exciting life so far.

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Any solution that encourages unfairness to one group, so as to make life more fair for another group, should be a non-starter.
A bit of 'the end justifies the means' has never worked out well.

PS.   I'm not British, balding or overweight, brush and use Listerine twice a day, and have had a fairly exciting life so far.

I'm not at least one of those first three...and can arguably check off one of the second three....so count me safe as well...

Edited July 23, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[TheVat]

On 7/20/2021 at 7:47 PM, naitche said:

(...)

That Critical Theory in practice  is not anti racism or anti bigotry at all, just more of the same with a vengeance. More dangerous for its lack of focus. It discredits all of Humanity. There will be loss. Without focus, that doesn't allow you see whats being excluded.

It scares hell out of me. I have observed the same thing in The pedigree Dog Registries and its subtly devastating to the subject. Applying negative values and expecting a positive out come...

 

Help us out here.   Are you comparing the experience of a student learning the history of slavery,  race massacres,  Jim Crow oppression,  etc.  to the subtle despair dogs feel when...what?   Ok,  I just have no idea what this is about.  Woof. 

 

[iNow]

10 hours ago, Area54 said:

Excellent. May I count on your support for the small, oft excluded and, frankly, never even recognised group of Balding Britons with Bad Breath, Big Bellies and Boring Biographies?

8 hours ago, iNow said:

Sadly, no. They’re not members of a protected class, and instead are pretty representative of those who’ve wielded the majority of power and wealth and opportunity for many centuries. 

I will, however, support those Alliterative Authors Always Alacritously Adding Amusement 

[naitche]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:47 AM, naitche said:

attempting objective measures of  Human conditions is not possible with out exclusion.

That Critical Theory in practice  is not anti racism or anti bigotry at all, just more of the same with a vengeance. More dangerous for its lack of focus. It discredits all of Humanity. There will be loss. Without focus, that doesn't allow you see whats being excluded.

It scares hell out of me. I have observed the same thing in The pedigree Dog Registries and its subtly devastating to the subject. Applying negative values and expecting a positive out come.

 

 

13 hours ago, TheVat said:

Help us out here.   Are you comparing the experience of a student learning the history of slavery,  race massacres,  Jim Crow oppression,  etc.  to the subtle despair dogs feel when...what?   Ok,  I just have no idea what this is about.  Woof. 

 

 

 

The comparison was meant to highlight  the effects of ignoring logic in the formation of social /human constructs. No where near enough context I agree. 😅 Woof

The Subject (our Humanity) must be divided before there can even be oppressor and oppressed. We worked hard to finally dismantle a double system structure.  I'm sure  its the application of objective value to what should be subjective that does that.

A subject is the sum of its parts. If they are equal to its purpose and direction, there is no objective measure of its parts that won't divide, and reduce the sum by its measure. 

Diversity is the antithesis of equality.

It looks like that objective value bias is the structure of racism or bigotry, as ordered by our common language, but is also responsible for much more complex biological behavior than that, Affecting selection processes, expectation, responsibility from bottom to top of all biological structure.

Still not close enough to express what I'm seeing effectively, though I'm convinced it is relevant. Your request I try @TheVathas brought me a lot closer.

 In the meantime, I've no one and no where else to practice. The patience of a few is appreciated. Sorry guys if you don't share it..

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by naitche

[naitche]

C.T demands the Human environment once again accept a two structured system, in order to make amends.

The problem as I see it is the labelling of the 2 structures is going to inform expectation. Low expectations from the oppressors of the oppressed. While there will be little reason to trust or value those who openly accept they are oppressors. 

Both parties are expected to accept the truth of those structures. Those who refuse seem to be the new oppressed.

There is no recognition of their humanity, and we are refusing access to Human structures. A place to stand. 

No platform. So we have a 3 way split system with roughly 1/2 the population supporting  a renewed two structured system, in opposition to the other half. Neither of which recognize the  value of the other.

Equal and opposite reactions. I think Trump was a symptom, not the cause of the polarization. People who feel they were being pushed out, attempting to reclaim their space.

There is not much equalibrium in any of that for the whole of subjective Humanity. No common direction.

[iNow]

This isn’t a thread about Trump and the way many of his voters felt marginalized and forgotten. You’re wandering thoughts need more focus, IMNSHO. 

[naitche]

I disagree.

Discussion of equality here would require an understanding of the  principles that support its structure.

The difference between diversity and division for example. Its assumption or rejection.