Transgender athletes

[J.C.MacSwell]

13 minutes ago, iNow said:

In fairness to JCM, I’ve been a bit unkind toward those who have challenged my position. I’m okay with some rough and tumble once in a while. I certainly won’t be crying myself to sleep bc someone online said I might have a tendency to support social justice like a warrior. 

All good when it challenges our positions. We know your hearts in the right place.

Be kind to those that don't know you as well. I honestly believe your influence will be stronger that way. (just my $0.02)

Edited August 7, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[MigL]

So nobody liked my Michael Jackson joke ?

[iNow]

I smirked 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

So nobody liked my Michael Jackson joke ?

Totally inappropriate.

Now, if he had said "On the iceberg let us" that would have been fine...

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, MigL said:

Fighting for inclusion of a few trans females ( into sports ) at the expense of the whole ( cis ) female gender is not social justice.

The whole of what?

The whole thread is essentially about one case; so the worst that can happen is, they're all shuffled back one; the bias you seem unable to consider is that, by playing with the best we ALL get better... 😉

That's probably why the women skateboarders insisted on being scored the same as the men...  

Edited August 7, 2021 by dimreepr

[TheVat]

12 hours ago, MigL said:

So nobody liked my Michael Jackson joke ?

FtR,  somewhere near the border of Wyoming and South Dakota,  it got a belly laugh.   (lots of smoke drifting in here,  so the laughing dislodges some of the PM 2.5 lining our respiratory tracts)

What’s Michael Jackson’s favourite thing to do on guitar? Fingering A minor.  

[CharonY]

I was too busy to follow the Olympics but given the worry in elite sports mentioned in this thread, does anyone know how man transgender athletes competed this year and where they ended up in the rankings?

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

I was too busy to follow the Olympics but given the worry in elite sports mentioned in this thread, does anyone know how man transgender athletes competed this year and where they ended up in the rankings?

As MigL and I were quite happy to mention, they won gold in soccer.

[MigL]

Doesn't seem to have been much of a problem,

L Hubbard failed to complete her lifts, and was not in medal contention,
Quinn of the Canadian female team earned a gold, along with her team-mates
( take that, Rapinoe ).

This is a fairly decent overview of Trans athletes in competitive sports

Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia

This quote from the above

"

Biological sex differences in humans impact performance in sports.^[34][35] Debate over whether and how transgender women should compete in female sports often has to do with whether they have an unfair advantage over cisgender women due to higher testosterone levels and skeletal, muscle and fat distribution differences. Testosterone regulates many different functions in the body, including the maintenance of bone and muscle mass.^[36]

A 2021 literature review concluded that for trans women, even with testosterone suppression, "the data show that strength, lean body mass, muscle size and bone density are only trivially affected. The reductions observed in muscle mass, size, and strength are very small compared to the baseline differences between males and females in these variables, and thus, there are major performance and safety implications in sports where these attributes are competitively significant."^[34] After 24 months of testosterone suppression, bone mass is generally preserved. The review states that no study has reported muscle loss greater than 12% with testosterone suppression even after three years of hormone therapy.^[34] It found that trans women are in the top 10% of females regarding lean body mass an'd possess a grip 25% stronger than most females.^[34] They suggest that instead of universal guidelines, each individual sport federation decide how to "balance between inclusion, safety and fairness" due to differences between sports.^[34]"

^{References are included in the quote, should you wish to pursue.}

^{Edit
x-posted with JC}

Edited August 10, 2021 by MigL

[J.C.MacSwell]

The IOC has stated they will come out with new guidelines in a couple of months, allowing each sport to balance fairness to cisgender women, inclusion of transgenders, and safety; while stating it will be impossible to maintain all three.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/30/ioc-admits-guidelines-for-transgender-athletes-are-not-fit-for-purpose

[CharonY]

13 hours ago, MigL said:

Doesn't seem to have been much of a problem,

L Hubbard failed to complete her lifts, and was not in medal contention,
Quinn of the Canadian female team earned a gold, along with her team-mates
( take that, Rapinoe ).

This is a fairly decent overview of Trans athletes in competitive sports

Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia

This quote from the above

Thanks for that, as we discussed earlier, I was interested for empirical data rather than extrapolations. Some is probably inevitable due to the lack of data (the wiki article does not seem to provide more insights than even in this thread here. So it is interesting to see that at least in this Olympics the current state does not seem to have a huge impact.

 

13 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The IOC has stated they will come out with new guidelines in a couple of months, allowing each sport to balance fairness to cisgender women, inclusion of transgenders, and safety; while stating it will be impossible to maintain all three.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/30/ioc-admits-guidelines-for-transgender-athletes-are-not-fit-for-purpose

It is also good to see that folks are seemingly looking for a balanced a approach rather than outright exclusion.

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

Thanks for that, as we discussed earlier, I was interested for empirical data rather than extrapolations. Some is probably inevitable due to the lack of data (the wiki article does not seem to provide more insights than even in this thread here. So it is interesting to see that at least in this Olympics the current state does not seem to have a huge impact.

 

It is also good to see that folks are seemingly looking for a balanced a approach rather than outright exclusion.

Balance would mean not completely fair to cis genders or transgenders (or both), not completely safe, and not completely inclusive. 

Intersex athletes even in this Olympics, for example, faced restrictions to the point of exclusion. 

One being Caster Semenya, who has been mentioned a number of times in this thread:

https://theconversation.com/ten-ethical-flaws-in-the-caster-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448

I agree with some of that article...but am a little aghast at some of the suggestions, such as allowing (read encouraging) female athletes to raise testosterone levels to levels of what intersex or transgender females are allowed.

But I'm certainly not going suggest the Caster Semenya ruling was fair to her, nor do I think I have a fair solution.

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

It is also good to see that folks are seemingly looking for a balanced a approach rather than outright exclusion.

When fairness, safety and inclusion admittedly can't be balanced reasonably, reasonable people will be upset with the results. (though I'm sure their voices will be drowned out by unreasonable ones...in an ugly political manner)

One thought: For some events, save a lane in the Final for an intersex or transgender athlete that has proven to meet healthy restrictions...if they win give out two Golds, if second two silvers, if third two bronze...

These guys didn't seem to mind each getting a Gold, and sharing first place:

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:17 AM, MigL said:

So nobody liked my Michael Jackson joke ?

So...nobody liked my "On the iceberg lettuce" joke?

[MigL]

Lettuce is for rabbits.
But I did like that video you posted.

Someone should let Dimreepr know that, at last for those two, the competition is NOT 'just a game'.

[J.C.MacSwell]

36 minutes ago, MigL said:

Lettuce is for rabbits.
But I did like that video you posted.

Someone should let Dimreepr know that, at last for those two, the competition is NOT 'just a game'.

Or as a semi religious fox would say..."lettuce prey"...

(my dieting is getting to me...that or the gin)

But definitely something to be said about pursuing a dream in the most healthy manner possible, IMO.

Those guys certainly respected each other. One would hope the IOC makes rules that allow competitors to appreciate one another, rather than pitted against each other's identifiable group.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Balance would mean not completely fair to cis genders or transgenders (or both), not completely safe, and not completely inclusive. 

Intersex athletes even in this Olympics, for example, faced restrictions to the point of exclusion. 

One being Caster Semenya, who has been mentioned a number of times in this thread:

https://theconversation.com/ten-ethical-flaws-in-the-caster-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448

I agree with some of that article...but am a little aghast at some of the suggestions, such as allowing (read encouraging) female athletes to raise testosterone levels to levels of what intersex or transgender females are allowed.

But I'm certainly not going suggest the Caster Semenya ruling was fair to her, nor do I think I have a fair solution.

When fairness, safety and inclusion admittedly can't be balanced reasonably, reasonable people will be upset with the results. (though I'm sure their voices will be drowned out by unreasonable ones...in an ugly political manner)

One thought: For some events, save a lane in the Final for an intersex or transgender athlete that has proven to meet healthy restrictions...if they win give out two Golds, if second two silvers, if third two bronze...

These guys didn't seem to mind each getting a Gold, and sharing first place:

 

Well in sports there will never be something like totally fair. After all, the way it currently is geared towards some kind of special elite and safety, well a lot of them have very serious injury risks (including some which the sport tries to hide). In other words, reasonable balance is all we can hope for in virtually all aspects of sports with acceptable levels of unfairness.

[pears]

I haven't read all of this thread but I've read enough of it to feel quite sad. I thought men and women's sports are separated in order to make competitive sports fair. The discussion over what is the definition of a man or a woman is highly confusing. I thought a science forum would be able to give greater clarity. We may as well just get rid of those categories altogether if they are so hard to define. The fact that someone can say they identify as a woman and yet be physically much more like a man than a woman and still get to compete in women's sports means you may as well just get rid of women's sports.

 

 

 

[StringJunky]

5 minutes ago, pears said:

I haven't read all of this thread but I've read enough of it to feel quite sad. I thought men and women's sports are separated in order to make competitive sports fair. The discussion over what is the definition of a man or a woman is highly confusing. I thought a science forum would be able to give greater clarity. We may as well just get rid of those categories altogether if they are so hard to define. The fact that someone can say they identify as a woman and yet be physically much more like a man than a woman and still get to compete in women's sports means you may as well just get rid of women's sports.

 

 

 

But the question to ask is: "Are trans-women winning disproportionately?"

[pears]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

But the question to ask is: "Are trans-women winning disproportionately?"

Is it? So we have to wait and see?

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, pears said:

I thought men and women's sports are separated in order to make competitive sports fair.

Define fair; for instance, is it fair that England's women's rugby team wins because they're paid to train harder than Scotland's women?

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, pears said:

Is it? So we have to wait and see?

AFAIK, the evidence seems to suggest that trans-women are not as strong/fast as cis-men. The treatment reduces it. They are only allowed the same testosterone levels, amongst other things, as is normal for cis-women. I've only seen one trans-person win in a major event, so far.  If trans-women were winning across the board, I think discussions would be had and steps would be taken. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by StringJunky

[pears]

43 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Define fair; for instance, is it fair that England's women's rugby team wins because they're paid to train harder than Scotland's women?

You're right. You can never make sport truly fair. Then let's remove all attempts to level the playing field. We shouldn't discriminate older ages from children's sports and men competing with women.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, pears said:

You're right. You can never make sport truly fair. Then let's remove all attempts to level the playing field. We shouldn't discriminate older ages from children's sports and men competing with women.

When the game demands I cut off my ball's in order to win, it's no longer a game.

Edited April 27, 2022 by dimreepr

[iNow]

2 hours ago, pears said:

We may as well just get rid of those categories altogether if they are so hard to define.

You're absolutely right. We should do exactly that, and we've already discussed this in the thread you acknowledged you haven't read.

Categorize based on ability, size, strength, or other relevant criteria. Ignore gender and genital plumbing. Problem solved. 

[Peterkin]

43 minutes ago, iNow said:

Categorize based on ability, size, strength, or other relevant criteria. Ignore gender and genital plumbing. Problem solved. 

Very good idea. And possibly amusing, watching the organizes try to assemble a short American soccer team and a tall Korean one. Mostly American women would probably end up playing mostly Korean men - which might well be a fairer, cleaner and more enjoyable game all around.