Transgender athletes

[StringJunky]

Maybe one should ask oneself if the horse can tell the difference between a man and a woman riding it. I doubt it. A woman can apply the same skills to a horse as a man. The only strength a person needs is that which mantains their optimal relative position to the horse so that it can run as  unimpeded as possible. The contact with the horse should be as minimal as possible for the same reason. You have to be a strong, fit person to race a horse, but that strength is for carrying you in that optimal position for the duration of a race. A woman is just as capable of doing this as a man. She is carrying her own weight, and nothing else, just like a man does.

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

That right. They can, they have, they won Olympic medals.

Again, the fact that women have won olympic medals is not evidence that women can race horses as well as men.

I always have high hopes when I start to converse with you and it inevitably leads to disappointment. You always seem to ruin your knowledgeable posts by your refusal to back off one inch from anything you've said, even when it is clear you've misstated some minor thing. You and Trump have that in common.

My fault for falling into the old trap.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Again, the fact that women have won olympic medals is not evidence that women can race horses as well as men.

Ride horses. In many different kinds of competition. Also drive them in sulkies.

But if Olympic medals are not proof of riding ability, I guess there must be some other criterion.

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You always seem to ruin your knowledgeable posts by your refusal to back off one inch from anything you've said, even when it is clear you've misstated some minor thing.

What, you mean I sidestepped a gotcha by restating what I had been saying all along? Sorry I missed it.

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

You and Trump have that in common.

Thank you for not going straight to Hitler.

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My fault for falling into the old trap.

Which was laid by - whom, where, in what way?

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Peterkin

[dimreepr]

6 hours ago, zapatos said:

So, sounds like a woman who trains to be a jockey should be able to meet all the physical needs to ride a horse in a race as well as a man. Is that right?

https://www.thejockeyclub.co.uk/aintree/events-tickets/grand-national/about-the-event/previous-grand-national-winners/rachael-blackmore/#:~:text=Rachael Blackmore rewrote the history,win in the iconic race.

[LaurieAG]

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

All sports are physical. Men and women both have bodies, muscles, joints, ligaments, lungs  and hearts. The question whether muscle/mass ratio is the decisive factor in a particular sport.

I just had a quick look through the Australian horse racing rules and the only jockey restriction between the sexes relates to stage of pregnancy.

 The following is from this site. https://horseracingsense.com/are-racehorses-male-in-horse-racing/

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Are male horses faster than female horses? Generally speaking, male horses are faster, taller, and stronger than their female counterparts. They also outnumber females on the racetrack and hold almost every relevant speed record.

The horses themselves face many restrictions and the sexes are broken down into Stallions, Geldings, and Colts for males and Fillies and Mares for Females. https://melbournetrackreport.com/how-to-bet-australia.html

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Categories of horse races in Australia:
 

Maiden – restricted to horses who have never won a race. Maidens are eligible to run in any class of race.

Class 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 – Class 1 races are lowest, restricted to horses who have won one race. Class 6 is for horses have won not more than six races. 

Restricted or Special Conditions - number of wins in the city or country, age, sex, prize money or colour (e.g. grey horses only) can be a 'special condition.'

Handicap –where the handicapper has assigned weight and penalties based on past performance. The Melbourne Cup is a Group 1 handicap.

Open – a race with no restrictions or special conditions.

Flying – an open race, usually over 1200m or less.

Welter – an open race with a higher minimum weight, suitable for horses that would normally carry 7 or 8 kgs above the minimum in a handicap.

2YO – only for two year old colts, gelding & fillies.  The Golden Slipper & Blue Diamond are Group 1 races for 2 year olds.

3YO - only for three year old colts, gelding & fillies.

4YO – only for horses & mares aged four years.

Set Weights & Penalties – horses carry a set weight based on their age & sex, with additional weight (penalties) under certain conditions.

Stakes – can be subject to conditions, but offers higher prize money and usually a Listed or Group race.

Quality Handicap – has higher maximum and lower minimum weights, usually a Listed or Group race.

Weight For Age – weight is allocated based on the horses age and sex. Usually Group races. The Cox Plate is Australia’s premier WFA Group 1 race.

Group & Listed races – the highest class, ‘black type’ races. From lowest to highest: Listed, Group 3, Group 2 & Group 1.

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

9 hours ago, CharonY said:

My conclusion is fairly simple. There is insufficient evidence that indicates a significant impact of the sex of the rider on the outcome. I have provided at least two references that have looked at it. So far your only counter-argument is that you do not believe it to be the case. Skepticism requires data and so far only one side has provided any.

My argument against your references is that it doesn't address my assumptions in any direct manner. Why should it change my position? It is essentially mostly noise in that regard, and statistically inconclusive in any case. It really hasn't attempted to isolate the importance of fitness to success as a jockey.

What you provided may satisfy you, because you don't believe fitness is significant enough to matter, even at top levels.

So you conclude:

"However, systematic analyses indicate that there a no significant advantages of men over women and the over-representation of men are driven by these biases."

How jockeys are chosen may in fact be sexist and unfair, but I think this is a reach on top of a reach given the limits of your references.

8 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Maybe one should ask oneself if the horse can tell the difference between a man and a woman riding it. I doubt it. A woman can apply the same skills to a horse as a man. The only strength a person needs is that which mantains their optimal relative position to the horse so that it can run as  unimpeded as possible. The contact with the horse should be as minimal as possible for the same reason. You have to be a strong, fit person to race a horse, but that strength is for carrying you in that optimal position for the duration of a race. A woman is just as capable of doing this as a man. She is carrying her own weight, and nothing else, just like a man does.

Why is it that the riders movements become so much more dynamic toward the end of the race? Is it simply to signal to the horse to encourage them to run faster? Or is it something more optimal that they simply cannot maintain for the whole race?

12 hours ago, zapatos said:

Other than keeping your body in the best possible position on the horse I cannot think (but don't know as I'm not a rider) where significant strength is required. As the horse is not trying to buck them off it seems likely to me that a rider's strength is not maxed out at any time. I'd certainly be happy to be proved incorrect as this conversation is just an interesting discussion for me.

It doesn't need to be to affect motor skills. I tried to get a link to support that but what mostly comes up is with regard to skill acquisition.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6443347/

"While the effect of fatigue on limiting skill execution are well known, its influence on learning new skills is unclear."

Well known yet hard to search I guess...I tried rewording but found nothing better to this point.

[dimreepr]

53 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

What you provided may satisfy you, because you don't believe fitness is significant enough to matter, even at top levels.

You're changing the goalposts, your assumption was based on strength not fitness; why can't a woman be as fit as a man?

Quote

 

Rachael Blackmore rewrote the history books yet again to become the first female jockey to win the Randox Grand National as she and Minella Times gave owner JP McManus a second win in the iconic race.

Minella Times had been backed into 11-1 for the world’s greatest steeplechase after Blackmore rode six winners at last month’s Cheltenham Festival to win the leading jockey award.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by dimreepr

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

You're changing the goalposts, your assumption was based on strength not fitness; why can't a woman be as fit as a man?

 

If you go back to my original mention, I said power to weight ratio, but admitted when it was brought up that strength, which is related to that, is a consideration as are some other aspects of physical fitness. 

I've allowed the goalposts to get wider, but not otherwise moved the net. I'm quite willing to consider where it is defendable and where it might not be.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If you go back to my original mention, I said power to weight ratio, but admitted when it was brought up that strength, which is related to that, is a consideration as are some other aspects of physical fitness. 

I've allowed the goalposts to get wider, but not otherwise moved the net. I'm quite willing to consider where it is defendable and where it might not be.

Maybe you should consider the option to stop diging, given Rachael's success. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

12 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Maybe you should consider the option to stop diging, given Rachael's success. 

Maybe you should give her more credit, given what she had to overcome to achieve that success.

[StringJunky]

Spoiler

 

23 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If you go back to my original mention, I said power to weight ratio, but admitted when it was brought up that strength, which is related to that, is a consideration as are some other aspects of physical fitness. 

I've allowed the goalposts to get wider, but not otherwise moved the net. I'm quite willing to consider where it is defendable and where it might not be.

The strength required, as I said, is holding yourself off the horse in the correct postion. It's not easy. The movements you make to signal to the horse in any given situation for each section of the race is part of what separates the best jockeys from the ok ones. Everything I've written is by people that know, not my opinion.

Edited May 15, 2022 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

11 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The strength required, as I said, is holding yourself off the horse in the correct postion. It's not easy. The movements you make to signal to the horse in any given situation for each section of the race is part of what separates the best jockeys from the ok ones. Everything I've written is by people that know, not my opinion.

It is. But that doesn't make it sufficient for optimal riding.

My point is that it's not just the correct position, but the correct dynamic, and that dynamic is not just about signalling.

https://horseracingsense.com/how-do-jockeys-make-horses-go-faster/

[dimreepr]

31 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It is. But that doesn't make it sufficient for optimal riding.

My point is that it's not just the correct position, but the correct dynamic, and that dynamic is not just about signalling.

https://horseracingsense.com/how-do-jockeys-make-horses-go-faster/

How is that gender specific?

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

How is that gender specific?

It's not. It doesn't mean women cannot or should not compete at any level. It just means they have significant extra hurdles to overcome, as they don't have some well known advantages of XY males.

Those include physical ones, not just those that might be unfairly motivated.

[dimreepr]

10 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It's not. It doesn't mean women cannot or should not compete at any level. It just means they have significant extra hurdles to overcome, as they don't have some well known advantages of XY males.

Those include physical ones, not just those that might be unfairly motivated.

You should really stop digging...

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

You should really stop digging...

You're welcome to not read my posts, or not respond to them, as you see fit.

If you ask a question I'll do my best to answer it, just as I did with my replies you took a "dig" at.

Edited May 15, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

You're welcome to not read my posts, or not respond to them, as you see fit.

As are you...

23 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

37 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

How is that gender specific?

It's not.

Then WTF are we talking about?

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

As are you...

Then WTF are we talking about?

Gender is a choice. You can't choose to have XY chromosomes, which all other things being equal give a distinct advantage in the vast majority of sports.

[Peterkin]

Olympics may not count as evidence, but

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In these sports, the physical differences between men and women are deemed not to have any effect on the outcome of any competition. Equestrian: An Olympic sport in which competitors ride horses, Equestrian consists of dressage, jumping, and eventing. Men and women compete in this event together.

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Horse Racing:  On the Flat and over jumps, women and men ride and compete against each other equally.  And in a recent study it was concluded that female riders perform no better or worse than their male counterparts on horses of similar ability.

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Motorbike Racing:  Doesn’t have gender barriers and female riders are starting to make a lot of progress in the sports.  In September 2017 Ana Carrasco, a 20-year-old from Spain, became the first woman to win a world championship motorcycle race in Portimao, Portugal.

https://www.pledgesports.org/2018/12/sports-where-men-and-women-compete/

But at east some sporting organizations acknowledge that sometimes skill is more decisive than progenerative hardware. 

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Then WTF are we talking about?

Something else, evidently.

[J.C.MacSwell]

31 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

But at east some sporting organizations acknowledge that sometimes skill is more decisive

Hopefully only sports where this is actually true, otherwise we are back to the 1920s with limited female participation.

[beecee]

The WNRL (Women's National Rugby League) has become quite popular in the Eastern Australian states in recent times.

They played with great passion, skill and pride. I would have loved mixing it with some of them!!😉 

 

[Intoscience]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:20 PM, Phi for All said:

It does happen, and more often with men (for obvious reasons), but there's no doubt you need a fair amount of strength to hold onto a running horse. If anyone doesn't believe that, try riding a motorcycle on motocross trails for twenty minutes and you'll feel like you carried the bike part of the way. The horse/vehicle may be working harder, but it's not easy staying on.

I know some extremely good off road women riders that are faster and more skilful than the vast majority of male riders. However, when they compete at the higher levels in open competitions against males they just don't compare. Not only do they struggle in comparison physically, but their skill level is not as high.  So what is the difference other than physical strength?

Why do males often have a higher skill level in some sporting practices than females? (this is a sincere question that I'm interested in learning the answer to)  

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Intoscience
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[beecee]

10 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Why do males often have a higher skill level in some sporting practices than females? (this is a sincere question that I'm interested in learning the answer to)  

Practice makes perfect? Men traditionally are generally more sport oriented then women, and generally experience far more competition which has been handed down through the evolutionary ages, and obviously are generally larger and stronger.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Practice makes perfect? Men traditionally are generally more sport oriented then women, and generally experience far more competition which has been handed down through the evolutionary ages, and obviously are generally larger and stronger.

I think it's a case of men have had more opportunities to play sport and was less culturally acceptable until more recently.

[Intoscience]

21 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I think it's a case of men have had more opportunities to play sport and was less culturally acceptable until more recently

Or maybe males (in general) have a more natural affinity to sports than females? Much like females (in general) seem to have a more natural affinity to nurture than males?

Both of which may have come from the evolutionary process?  

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Practice makes perfect? Men traditionally are generally more sport oriented then women, and generally experience far more competition which has been handed down through the evolutionary ages, and obviously are generally larger and stronger

This is the crux of the main argument in the OP (my bold)

However, now the thread has diverged to skill capacity in addition to physical strength. I think you are correct that certain skills are handed down through evolutionary processes. Though, sporting skills (in evolutionary terms) are quite a recent phenomena.   

Edited May 16, 2022 by Intoscience
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