Transgender athletes

[dimreepr]

37 minutes ago, koti said:

Absolutely, I agree. But the fact that the parents failed at being receptive enough to their childs feelings and it all resulting in a spectacular sht storm has nothing to do with the fact that in this case, the child not transgender and is not going to transition because shes just playing a game. 

There's two thing's that's wrong about that assumption:

You're basing it on just one side of the argument.

You're not allowing for a confused child that's full to the brim with hormones.

And you're not allowing for a genuine change of mind.

Three!!! there's three things that's wrong about that assumption; but then nobody expects a Spanish inquiry. 😁 

15 hours ago, beecee said:

I have nothing against any PC social justice warrior, only the few occasions where that so called socail justice goes from the sublime to the ridiculous. An example of PC going from the sublime to the ridiculous occurred in Sydney a couple of Xmas's ago. A certain council came down with an edict that It is now  politically incorrect to say Merry Christmas because you might insult non Christians and atheists. We are told that the correct greeting is now Happy Holidays. It of course was laughed out of existence, as well as that council and its so called progressives.

So, you've got nothing against PC or social or justice or warrior, as long as you agree with what they say; otherwise "they're not worthy" to listen to, even their more reasonable suggestions; sound's awfully religious to me, please explain my confusion.

[swansont]

17 hours ago, beecee said:

Of course. But that isn't what was being suggested. They are obviously the best in their category of women's soccer. We were making the "unfair" comparisons between women and men in certain  sports.

If you would review, you might see we were talking about the pay disparity between the USMNT and USWNT. The women play better soccer relative to their competition.

[zapatos]

13 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Proposal: Allow transgender males steroids to increase their testosterone well beyond normal male range so that they can be competitive in top level sports.

Not that it would actually be enough (because though significant it's not all about testosterone), but if it was...how would this be different from many of the current proposals for transgender females inclusion in female sports?

I think that fundamentally the way some of us look at this, is that being transgender is as natural as being cisgender, and thus they should be allowed to participate in all aspects of society. End of story.

Now, if there needs to be certain additional rules created to allow them to participate, fine. Figure out what those rules should be. We have rules for every other thing under the sun related to sports so it's not like we can't do so here.

But what we should not do is just eliminate them from participating due to who they are.

Now, to your question above. The difference is, with transgender women they are getting medical treatment to allow them to be who they are. With your proposal for transgender men, you are going beyond medical treatment to allow them to be who they are, and are providing drugs simply for competitive advantage.

[J.C.MacSwell]

13 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I think that fundamentally the way some of us look at this, is that being transgender is as natural as being cisgender, and thus they should be allowed to participate in all aspects of society. End of story.

Now, if there needs to be certain additional rules created to allow them to participate, fine. Figure out what those rules should be. We have rules for every other thing under the sun related to sports so it's not like we can't do so here.

But what we should not do is just eliminate them from participating due to who they are.

Now, to your question above. The difference is, with transgender women they are getting medical treatment to allow them to be who they are. With your proposal for transgender men, you are going beyond medical treatment to allow them to be who they are, and are providing drugs simply for competitive advantage.

Their doctors don't set the required testosterone targets. The sport governing bodies do. The same ones that outlaw drug use for enhancing performance in cisgendered women, choose a one size fits all target for others in a failed attempt to balance safety and fairness in an equitable manner.

Caster Semenya was declared ineligible to compete for refusing to take drugs she did not need, and did not want.

Fair and equitable inclusion of transgenders in top level sport is extremely difficult if not impossible. Why is it that those of us with our heads up our bunholes can clearly see that, while those thinking their heads are elsewhere cannot?

[zapatos]

37 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Fair and equitable inclusion of transgenders in top level sport is extremely difficult if not impossible.

Definitely difficult to find a compromise. I don't at all think impossible. 

I don't believe we'll ever get truly fair and equitable inclusion of transgenders, but then we don't really have fair and equitable inclusion of anyone else either. We just need to get reasonably close.

[J.C.MacSwell]

10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Definitely difficult to find a compromise. I don't at all think impossible. 

I don't believe we'll ever get truly fair and equitable inclusion of transgenders, but then we don't really have fair and equitable inclusion of anyone else either. We just need to get reasonably close.

Certainly testosterone control hasn't worked. What else has been tried. Has anything been tried to advance inclusion of transgender males? Only INow has the answer but so far he's been keeping it secret, other than to suggest it's not hidden somewhere in our asses.

The IOC has given up and left it to the individual sports bodies.

[zapatos]

41 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Certainly testosterone control hasn't worked. What else has been tried. Has anything been tried to advance inclusion of transgender males? 

The IOC is working on it for Olympic  competition. I'm happy to let them work out the kinks. Imperfect rules to begin with is not the same as evidence that it cannot work.

I think allowing the Olympics to set their own rules, like they've been doing since the Olympics began, is the right way to do it.

The following is from November 2021.

Quote

The International Olympic Committee announced a new framework for transgender and intersex athletes Tuesday, dropping controversial policies that required competing athletes to undergo "medically unnecessary" procedures or treatment.

In a six-page document, the IOC outlined 10 principles, which it described as "grounded on the respect for internationally recognised human rights," that sports competitions should follow. It also said it will no longer require athletes to undergo hormone level modifications to compete.

 

"This Framework recognises both the need to ensure that everyone, irrespective of their gender identity or sex variations, can practise sport in a safe, harassment-free environment that recognises and respects their needs and identities," the committee said.

The new framework is not legally binding and was developed following an “extensive consultation” with athletes, other sports organizations and experts in the fields of human rights, law and medicine, the IOC said. It comes just three months after the Tokyo Olympics, which saw the first transgender and intersex athletes compete in the Games' history.

Tuesday's framework replaces guidelines the IOC released in 2015, which put a limit on athletes' testosterone levels that required some of them to undergo treatments the IOC now describes as "medically unnecessary." Before 2015, the IOC required athletes to undergo genital surgery.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/international-olympic-committee-issues-new-guidelines-transgender-athl-rcna5775

Edited May 21, 2022 by zapatos

[MigL]

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

I think allowing the Olympics to set their own rules, like they've been doing since the Olympics began, is the right way to do it.

I also don't think it is impossible to have almost equitable inclusive rules.
And I believe that was discussed as far back as page #1, where it was suggested by some of us that new rules were needed, while others claimed existing rules sufficed for people who identify with a catagory.

And I believe the IOC could have already implemented those new rules if they weren't so corrupted/obsessed with money/profits.
They could have avoided the unfavorable media attention, and 41 pages of data on the SFn servers.

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

The IOC is working on it for Olympic  competition. I'm happy to let them work out the kinks. Imperfect rules to begin with is not the same as evidence that it cannot work.

I think allowing the Olympics to set their own rules, like they've been doing since the Olympics began, is the right way to do it.

The following is from November 2021.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/international-olympic-committee-issues-new-guidelines-transgender-athl-rcna5775

Of course this is somewhat incorrect:

"It comes just three months after the Tokyo Olympics, which saw the first transgender and intersex athletes compete in the Games' history."

Caster Semenya, for example, is an intersex athlete that won gold in the 800m in Rio in 2016 but was deemed ineligible to compete in Tokyo.

It looks though like the IOC might be are slowly coming to terms with this. I don't see it in the same link but am pretty sure they are leaving the final decisions to individual sports...so at least they are working on guidelines. +1

[beecee]

20 hours ago, Peterkin said:

....

That's intelligent. 

[iNow]

I think you two should just get a divorce already. You’re traumatizing the kids and neighbors with your bickering 

[Peterkin]

Good advice.

[beecee]

10 hours ago, dimreepr said:

So, you've got nothing against PC or social or justice or warrior, as long as you agree with what they say; otherwise "they're not worthy" to listen to, even their more reasonable suggestions; sound's awfully religious to me, please explain my confusion.

It's difficult to get through your confusion, but the same situation applies with your own views. Differences being, my views are widely accepted, while yours are essentially unworkable. Why not for once in your life, take the bit between the teeth, and just admit that you find the extreme PC example I gave, as reasonable and just, in your opinion?  That was what you were trying to convey, correct? Thankfully though, as I reported, It of course was laughed out of existence, as well as that council and its so called progressives. Worth noting, that the council was run by my own Labor party, or at least a few extremists that just happened to be a part of that Labor run council. They were rightly given the royal order of the boot, and subsequently admonished by the Federal and State levels of the Labor party. 

I hope that wasn't too confusing. Merry Christmas!!! 😄

16 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Good advice.

That's why I gave him a like!

20 hours ago, zapatos said:

It must be difficult living in constant fear that you could melt at any time. 

 

LOL! Stop it Smalls, you're killing me! 😂

I will be absent most of today, as I am helping clean up a couple of polling booths in my area, so you may need to get your entertainment value elsewhere for a while. 😴

Edited May 21, 2022 by beecee

[dimreepr]

13 hours ago, beecee said:

It's difficult to get through your confusion, but the same situation applies with your own views. Differences being, my views are widely accepted, while yours are essentially unworkable. Why not for once in your life, take the bit between the teeth, and just admit that you find the extreme PC example I gave, as reasonable and just, in your opinion?  That was what you were trying to convey, correct? Thankfully though, as I reported, It of course was laughed out of existence, as well as that council and its so called progressives. Worth noting, that the council was run by my own Labor party, or at least a few extremists that just happened to be a part of that Labor run council. They were rightly given the royal order of the boot, and subsequently admonished by the Federal and State levels of the Labor party. 

I hope that wasn't too confusing. Merry Christmas!!! 😄

You misunderstand my confusion, what I don't understand is, how you can hold so many opposing position's at the same time? I understand cognitive dissonance, but this is some next level stuff... 

[beecee]

9 hours ago, dimreepr said:

You misunderstand my confusion, what I don't understand is, how you can hold so many opposing position's at the same time? I understand cognitive dissonance, but this is some next level stuff... 

 Sorry for the rather late reply...had a piss up last night celebrating a Labor win in our elections!!!

Not at all on either points....your confusion, and your rather silly rhetoric about me holding opposing positions. Your confusion on the latter, is your inabilty to be able to see where normal positions, move into extreme unworkable positions, much as you hold in many disciplines.

[Intoscience]

On 5/20/2022 at 11:45 AM, koti said:

So this someone took offence that you did not take offence to someone not offending you? Thats some next level stuff.

In a nutshell yes, and it pissed me off!

On 5/21/2022 at 4:42 PM, zapatos said:

Definitely difficult to find a compromise. I don't at all think impossible. 

I don't believe we'll ever get truly fair and equitable inclusion of transgenders, but then we don't really have fair and equitable inclusion of anyone else either. We just need to get reasonably close.

I agree, but how can this be achieved without some form of discrimination?

iNow's suggestion of scraping the sex category may create a wider field of opportunity. But this will inevitably lead to a discriminative outcome, since, men in general, certainly at the elite level, tend to be stronger, faster and more aggressive than women. So how's that going to work out then? The vast majority of elite sports totally dominated by men? Seems like a step backwards to me, then I do have my head up my bunhole. 

On 5/20/2022 at 4:27 PM, zapatos said:

Well, except that you did say they are. 

 

 

 

Ermm.. I said "vast majority" at the elite level, I never said "all"! 

At the amateur level and in certain sports where its all about fun and games then maybe not so much.     

On 5/20/2022 at 3:51 PM, iNow said:

Unless, of course, you're the transgendered person, or parent or loved one of a transgendered person, who's being needlessly discriminated against as a result of some not so humble yet extremely archaic opinions and assumptions. 

Categorize based on skill and ability and merit. Ignore gender, and sex, and how they identify or how they sit or stand when they pee.

Why is this such an appalling and unacceptable idea to so very many? Why is it so hard to agree here that sports qualification criteria shouldn't care how you were classified at birth and how it should instead be focused on qualifications based on sport-specific thresholds?

What all 6 of the athletes you mentioned? or all the rest of the transgender population? I thought this thread was centred around transgender sports persons?  

No one is suggesting its an appalling idea, its just a crap idea, all it will do is constrain the eventual outcome. I want to see all sexes - female, male, trans whatever.... competing "fairly" at all levels, with equal status, equal pay and recognition. I don't want to see a 6'4" 250 pound man beat a woman to death in a boxing ring thanks.  

Edited May 23, 2022 by Intoscience

[J.C.MacSwell]

Just a comment on equal pay and though I'm absolutely fine with the new USA contract, I'm not for equal pay in the manner the US women's Team has demanded.

They all make substantially more than most men and women, and they deserve to IMO, but it's driven by gate receipts (the prize moneys are included in that) not simply because they are elite athletes. They certainly can negotiate and share revenues they generate with each other, that's their prerogative. But they certainly don't expect themselves to share the revenues with other elite athletes outside their sport, say women's wrestling, or within their sport, say the paralympic soccer teams. I do expect the women will be very protective of that revenue, including wanting rules to exclude XY individuals from competing on an arbitrary equal footing. Ultimately it will tend to be about the money, not the integrity, the women would not have signed that deal if their expected revenues were higher than the men's (nor should they have if that was the case).

Also don't expect Brazil, or any other country to follow their lead, and don't suggest they are less progressive when they don't go for equal pay (they may be less progressive, as demonstrated by the greater discrepancy in Brazil of the Men's to Women's game, but not due to rejecting "equal pay" at top level)

It will be interesting though, to see how many transgender females tryout for the US Women's Team given the half a million a year incentive, how many make it against whatever hurdles are put in place against them.

My thinking is that most of the current Team will be very relieved when their international body declares transgender females ineligible or, more likely,  effectively blocks them from international play with overly restrictive rules, and Rapinoe et al can pretend to take the high road, just as they have in their demands for equal pay.

Edited May 23, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[dimreepr]

17 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Just a comment on equal pay and though I'm absolutely fine with the new USA contract, I'm not for equal pay in the manner the US women's Team has demanded.

If it's truely equal pay, the binman/woman would be paid the same as a professional footballer; but first things first, let's just admit that women have an equal say in the future of us.

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

Their true colours would come out though, if transgender eligibility was up to USA alone, or they had to rely solely on the Americans that had their heads up their bungholes and were willing to speak up in defence of women's sport.

Just now, dimreepr said:

If it's truely equal pay, the binman/woman would be paid the same as a professional footballer; but first things first, let's just admit that women have an equal say in the future of us.

 

Certainly. Who would argue otherwise?

I don't think transgenders are threatening to take away women's voting rights, or women's human rights generally. 

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I don't think transgenders are threatening to take away women's voting rights, or women's human rights generally. 

Indeed, just an overpaid athlete that's frightened of a slight pay cut

[J.C.MacSwell]

15 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, just an overpaid athlete that's frightened of a slight pay cut

If you are wealthy enough to consider half a million extra a year (making the Team) to nothing extra at all (displaced from the Team) a slight pay cut, I'm very happy for you Dim.

Edited May 23, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[zapatos]

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Ermm.. I said "vast majority" at the elite level, I never said "all"! 

 

Well, that makes all the difference!

Then I'm shocked to hear that transgender men are waiting in the wings to win the "vast majority" of elite sporting competitions. Shocked I tell you!

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I don't want to see a 6'4" 250 pound man beat a woman to death in a boxing ring thanks. 

Give me a break. 

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If you are wealthy enough to consider half a million extra a year (making the Team) to nothing extra at all (displaced from the Team) I'm very happy for you Dim.

Welcome to the middle of the bell curve...

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Welcome to the middle of the bell curve...

World bell curve? Or G7 member bell curve?

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

World bell curve? Or G7 member bell curve?

That depends on how wealthy you think you are...