Transgender athletes

[geordief]

20 minutes ago, zapatos said:

 

Are you suggesting a slightly built female is likely to make the National Rugby Team?

Yes,I had that in mind.There are positions in rugby where quick thinking and the ability to get the ball quickly from the feet of your own players  means that those who play that position are much lighter build.

Think the position may be called scrum half.

 

https://www.rugbyhow.com/rugby-scrum-half.html

I myself played hooker as it was meant to  favour smaller people with good foot skills.

Edited May 26, 2022 by geordief

[zapatos]

6 minutes ago, geordief said:

Yes,I had that in mind.There are positions in rugby where quick thinking and the ability to get the ball quickly from the feet of your own players  means that those who play that position are much lighter build.

Think the position may be called scrum half.

 

I myself played hooker as it was meant to  favour smaller people with good foot skills.

Then yes. The slightly built females and slightly built males will both get tossed about.

I played the wing. I was fast but the larger players pounded me. It took me 4-5 days to recover from a game.

[beecee]

20 minutes ago, zapatos said:

They don't exist. You are making up stories because it fits your world view and allows you to pontificate from on high.

No they certaily do exist, and I have linked to the rugby League official rules to show that they exist. What doesn't exist, of course ( at least in the rugby codes, tennis, cricket, weight lifting etc etc etc) is your preferred extreme PC that you try and force down mine and others throats.

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

What doesn't exist, of course ( at least in the rugby codes, tennis, cricket, weight lifting etc etc etc) is your preferred extreme PC that you try and force down mine and others throats.

I absolutely agree with you that “extreme PC being forced down peoples throats” DOESN’T exist here, and certainly not in this thread, but I also know that was just sloppy language and not at all what you meant to convey. 

[geordief]

6 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Then yes. The slightly built females and slightly built males will both get tossed about.

I played the wing. I was fast but the larger players pounded me. It took me 4-5 days to recover from a game.

Same here.I hated playing  sport but I enjoy watching rugby and even boxing as  people's will to endure can be so admirable.

But then we look at Ali and wish he had cut it short.

Edited May 26, 2022 by geordief

[zapatos]

8 minutes ago, beecee said:

your preferred extreme PC that you try and force down mine and others throats.

I'm sure I'll be accused of "oneupmanship" and playing games, but can you provide a single quote from me that displays "extreme PC"?

I anxiously await your tap dancing and misdirection as you do your best to not be held accountable for yet another baseless claim.

[beecee]

54 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Ok, that confirms that you indeed do not get follow the gist of the argument. I am trying one more time and then I suggest that we give up on that as it does not seem to go anywhere.

I certainly follow and my argument still stands. As illustrated in the William Sisters I linked to, Rugby league and Union are rightly segregated sports. Just because I was never a first grader professional, does not mean I automatically have the right to play with say a third grade women's team. All the categories can never really be measured, strength, speed, endurance, aggression, toughness, etc. And the reasons why after the age of 10, with the rugby codes, men and women are segregated, under professional medical advice.

And I support that stance fully, and reject any and all fabricated excuses for any implementation of extreme PC.

54 minutes ago, CharonY said:

(1)The argument of segregation is based on the fact that boys at some point become stronger than girls. Agreed?

 

(2)From there it follows that there is a physiological difference, and let us just call it strength to make it simple. After all if there is a difference, we should be able to measure by whatever means (otherwise there would be no difference).

(3) So let's say at girls have an average strength of 5 going up to 7, whereas boys have an average of 8 going up to 10. So let's say individuals with a strength of 8 or above are too dangerous to put together with folks with, say, more than two levels of difference.

So let's say then that we put a threshold of 8 for the higher league. As no woman might reach it, it will be only men. However, men who do not reach that threshold (and therefore would be at similar risk of injury as women), would also not qualify. Conversely, transgender and potentially some other rare women who cross that threshold would then compete in that league, which would minimize risk of injury.

(1) yes

(2) you are now trying to simplify it to support your stance. There is far more then just strength....endurance, ability to take big hits, just to name a couple, and I suggest many other areas including tackling ability, and aggression.

(3) See (2) and tell me how we are ever going to gauge all the "qualities" and thresholds with all I have mentioned and probably many more. And why do you reject the professional medical advice already received and tabled by the NRL and myself.

BTW I played hooker and lock forward....not that big, (as in height) but a ferocious little tackler and cover defender. Just simply was never good enough, nor had the wider range of abilities to reach the first grade ranks. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by beecee

[J.C.MacSwell]

 

Nothing wrong with that, I guess, assuming Boris identifies as six years old... (kidding)

Edited May 26, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[beecee]

24 minutes ago, iNow said:

I absolutely agree with you that “extreme PC being forced down peoples throats” DOESN’T exist here, and certainly not in this thread, but I also know that was just sloppy language and not at all what you meant to convey. 

I accept the sloppy language jibe and yes you are correct, it certainly was in reference to extreme PC being forced doown throats on this forum. 🤭 It seems you are just not a pretty face!

17 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I'm sure I'll be accused of "oneupmanship" and playing games, but can you provide a single quote from me that displays "extreme PC"?

I anxiously await your tap dancing and misdirection as you do your best to not be held accountable for yet another baseless claim.

I was never much of a dancer and with the accusation of oneupmanship, if the cap fits, wear it. 

Again, In most body contact sports, particularly the rugby codes, segregation based on sex,  above the age of 10, is applied exclusively by the NRL on expert professional medical advice. That's the state of the nation and as it should be and will always be.

Edited May 26, 2022 by beecee

[iNow]

10 minutes ago, beecee said:

That's the state of the nation and as it should be and will always be.

This current state is needlessly discriminating against trans kids. If it can be improved without sacrificing the other rules of fairness and decorum that cis-gendered kids play within, then why not try?

You seem to be saying, “because it’s always been this way and we can never change it” and TBH that doesn’t move me at all nor is it compelling in the least given humanity’s long history of hatred and bigotry. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by iNow

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

This current state is needlessly discriminating against trans kids. If it can be improved without sacrificing the other rules of fairness and decorum that cis-gendered kids play within, then why not try?

You seem to be saying, “because it’s always been this way and we can never change it” and TBH that doesn’t move me at all nor is it compelling in the least given humanity’s long history of hatred and bigotry. 

Categories and rules in general should adapt as we learn more about ourselves as a species.

[iNow]

18 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Categories and rules in general should adapt as we learn more about ourselves as a species.

Especially given that sports is literally us humans making up and inventing from scratch arbitrary rules however we see fit. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Ok, that confirms that you indeed do not get follow the gist of the argument. I am trying one more time and then I suggest that we give up on that as it does not seem to go anywhere.

The argument of segregation is based on the fact that boys at some point become stronger than girls. Agreed? From there it follows that there is a physiological difference, and let us just call it strength to make it simple. After all if there is a difference, we should be able to measure by whatever means (otherwise there would be no difference).

So let's say at girls have an average strength of 5 going up to 7, whereas boys have an average of 8 going up to 10. So let's say individuals with a strength of 8 or above are too dangerous to put together with folks with, say, more than two levels of difference.

So let's say then that we put a threshold of 8 for the higher league. As no woman might reach it, it will be only men. However, men who do not reach that threshold (and therefore would be at similar risk of injury as women), would also not qualify. Conversely, transgender and potentially some other rare women who cross that threshold would then compete in that league, which would minimize risk of injury.

 

Point 1

For most physical sports:

Thank you (not being sarcastic, you are at least attempting it) for at least trying to address  this one of the objections to this supposed solution that dissolves women's sport at elite level and replaces it with a second tier, and thank you for including almost all current elite women in it by making the bar high enough to allow them, even if very few are at that highest point of the current bell curve that are close to the bar, the cut off point if you will.

Now juxtapose that bell curve on that of XY chromosome individuals? For those physical sports where XY  individuals tend to dominate.

How many XY individuals are close to the bar? How many that are beyond it will fall below it as their sporting careers decline? How many dishonest ones capable of exceeding it choose to measure below it? 

Is this really a satisfactory solution? 

Point 2

How, conceptually at least, are the qualifying measurements done?

What level of effort are the participants obligated to give?

Is it this level?

2012 Olympic Badminton scandal where players intentionally lost matches due to the incentives in the rules to do so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdK4vPz0qaI

Point 3

Is everyone sure that none of this threatens women's sports at elite level.

Point 4

Does anyone care?

Edited May 26, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[beecee]

32 minutes ago, iNow said:

This current state is needlessly discriminating against trans kids. If it can be improved without sacrificing the other rules of fairness and decorum that cis-gendered kids play within, then why not try?

Is it? Does a transkid no he is trans? Or at what age?

33 minutes ago, iNow said:

You seem to be saying, “because it’s always been this way and we can never change it” and TBH that doesn’t move me at all nor is it compelling in the least given humanity’s long history of hatred and bigotry. 

Far from it. Give me a better alternative and I'll be right behind it. There are many sports where men and women at any level can compete. There are also some where they cannot compete. That's not to say that I would beat Serena in a tennis match, but I would certainly make her regret (legally) if she opposed me on a rugby league field...even at my age!!

BTW and to repeat myself, the NRL in Australia also have categories for children and adults with disabilities, although I am not quite aware of exactly the criteria they use.

And also with transgenders and the advice forthcoming in that regard, yet no one has yet commented on those progressively sensible and cautionary rules.  

[zapatos]

52 minutes ago, beecee said:

I was never much of a dancer and with the accusation of oneupmanship, if the cap fits, wear it. 

 

And the dance begins. Where is the quote showing my "extreme PC"? 

[beecee]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

And the dance begins. Where is the quote showing my "extreme PC"? 

So you disagree with the extreme PC notion of doing away with sex segregation in body contact sports like the rugby codes, rather you prefer to be based on all the other doubtfully measurable qualities? You know like speed, weight, height, toughness, durability, aggression, ability to take and absorb hard knocks. Why not tell me what you stand for instead of beating round the bush. (although I do have a rough idea!!😁)

Essentially, if the cap fits, wear it. 

Again, In most body contact sports, particularly the rugby codes, segregation based on sex,  above the age of 10, is applied exclusively by the NRL on expert professional medical advice. That's the state of the nation and as it should be and will always be.

[zapatos]

Just now, beecee said:

So you disagree with the extreme PC notion of doing away with sex segregation in body contact sports like the rugby codes, rather you prefer to be based on all the other doubtfully measurable qualities? You know like speed, weight, height, toughness, durability, aggression, ability to take and absorb hard knocks. Why not tell me what you stand for instead of beating round the bush. (although I do have a rough idea!!😁)

Essentially, if the cap fits, wear it. 

Again, In most body contact sports, particularly the rugby codes, segregation based on sex,  above the age of 10, is applied exclusively by the NRL on expert professional medical advice. That's the state of the nation and as it should be and will always be.

And the dance continues. Where is the quote showing my "extreme PC" that I'm "forcing" down your throat? Either put up or shut up.

[iNow]

34 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Is everyone sure that none of this threatens women's sports at elite level.

I wonder if we might be able to agree that elite sports right now aren’t the ones being targeted by legislation making it illegal for trans kids to compete.

I wonder if we can proceed agreeing that these ideas need first to be tried in elementary school, middle school, and high school where states are currently excluding these kids who already feel excluded, then perhaps address these valid concerns at the elite level a bit later once we’ve had more practice getting things right. 

[StringJunky]

38 minutes ago, beecee said:

Is it? Does a transkid no he is trans? Or at what age?

A child without cultural pressures will just be who they are. It can start as early as three that I've read. I remember a six year old trans-girl behaving and choosing traditionally female ways and attire being asked how long they had felt that way: "All my life". They were too young to learn that behaviour.

[beecee]

40 minutes ago, zapatos said:

And the dance continues. Where is the quote showing my "extreme PC" that I'm "forcing" down your throat? Either put up or shut up.

Certainly old friend!!!

So you disagree with the extreme PC notion of doing away with sex segregation in body contact sports like the rugby codes, rather you prefer to be based on all the other doubtfully measurable qualities? You know like speed, weight, height, toughness, durability, aggression, ability to take and absorb hard knocks. Why not tell me what you stand for instead of beating round the bush. (although I do have a rough idea!!😁)

Essentially, if the cap fits, wear it. 

Again, In most body contact sports, particularly the rugby codes, segregation based on sex,  above the age of 10, is applied exclusively by the NRL on expert professional medical advice. That's the state of the nation and as it should be and will always be.

Again if the cap fits, wear it. 

It's a real shame that on a science forum, some see the need to blindly adhere to and follow extreme PC demands.

Edited May 26, 2022 by beecee

[iNow]

45 minutes ago, beecee said:

That's the state of the nation and as it should be and will always be.

You know, I wasn’t convinced the first 17 times you copy pasted this, but this 18th time really made a difference. 

4 minutes ago, beecee said:

Why not tell me what you stand for instead of beating round the bush.

It matters not how someone takes a piss. We can proceed by focusing on skill, strength, capability, and desire to compete. Maleness and femaleness are rather irrelevant when setting up divisions and qualification thresholds. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by iNow

[beecee]

Just now, iNow said:

You know, I wasn’t convinced the first 17 times you copy pasted this, but this 18th time really made a difference. 

I'm far more convinced after being misrepresented yesterday, and so much ignoring of the facts that I have linked to with regards to the NRL, and the standing medical advice that's being ignored, that some are also playing being obtuse for conveneance sake.

Incredible how some are so drawn to automatically blindly accepting what extreme PC demands of them for convenience sake. Particularly and sadly on a science forum. 

[zapatos]

52 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Is everyone sure that none of this threatens women's sports at elite level.

 

I'm not sure, but I also don't believe competition is 'fair' at the elite level anyway. For example, the US has a lot more money to train its women athletes in many other countries which gives them a clear advantage. The Dutch are the tallest women in the world. Some countries have better medical than others. 

I don't find the fact that a few trans women who compete at the elite level, competing under regulations specific to them, are a major threat to women's sports at the elite level. 

If I'm wrong, then this will be an experiment that fails eventually. But at least we will have tried, which I think is important.

[beecee]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Categories and rules in general should adapt as we learn more about ourselves as a species.

Yes, and that's being done. Check out the NRL rules.

[iNow]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

Check out the NRL rules.

I hear the stone tablets into which they’ve been chiseled and handed down from on-high are quite lovely.