Transgender athletes

[iNow]

8 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I think you further know that defining those curves with reasonable accuracy will be problematic.

Not necessarily.

My suggestion here is those curves already exist within the sex discriminated sports divisions. The easy example is junior varsity versus varsity sports. You either qualify or you do not.

All sports have embedded in the athlete selection process skills and competence based thresholds. That doesn't change just because we start caring less whether one was assigned male or assigned female nor whether one is trans. 

8 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Yet somehow you think eliminating the female category and replacing it with a second tier otherwise open category based on choosing some cut off point will lead to an acceptable outcome.

I must first ask you, what is your cut-off point for the definition of "female?"

[beecee]

On 5/27/2022 at 1:30 AM, naitche said:

I would think the majority ( maybe not all)  of sports still segregated by sex are segregated by choice of the women taking part, for a reason. 

Those women should be the ones to decide if the reasons for segregation are compromised by  the inclusion of trans women. Kind of patronizing for others to decide on their behalf.

I  see the solution being proposed as unworkable. It complicates qualification,  making it harder for everyone and seems too much like matching every one up perfectly and throwing a dice. It becomes chance, not skill/strength/endurance etc. A prize for every one, eventually. Not much for the spectator in that. Sport is lessened.

Bingo!!! On the first paragraph at least in my country, women do accept that sex segregation is necessary in certain sports of heavy contact and big hits like the rugby codes. That won't change any time soon, thankfully.

The NRL and other rugby code in Australia, already have cautionary rules for the rare situation of transgenders, based on scientific and medical advice, and as detailed in a previous post re the NRL rules charter.

Of course it is unworkable as you state in your third paragraph. It's unworkable because females generally speaking will not match the weight, skill, speed, toughness, durability, aggressivness, and ability to absorb big hits. The average weight of a rugby league prop forward is 110 kgs on average, of muscle.

Like it or not, that's the state of the nation, and the reason that sex segregation will certainly remain in certain sports. 

We also as I linked earlier, (strangely no comment on) have the case of some bum tennis player, ranked at about the 203 mark, beating both the William sisters quite easily. 

"From the standpoint of values internal to competitive sport, the issue of gender identity is for the most part a non-starter. The purpose of dividing competitions into separate men's and women's events is to minimize the role of insuperable physical disparities in determining outcomes".(WIKI)

To harp on merrily and claim sex segregation is a denial of rights, is an example of going from the sublime to the ridiculous. Segregation is generally seen rightly as abhorent, but the fact that men and women are different in size, aggressiveness, etc, means that in certain sports, it is desirable and essential to avoid injury and uneven competitive results.

On 5/27/2022 at 12:01 AM, MigL said:

keeping in mind that the public is the final arbitrer as it is spectator driven.
If the public perceives the situation as unfair, they stop watching, and that could diminish, or even,end some women's sports.

Another valid point.

[iNow]

It’s curious why that same public doesn’t find it unfair to exclude trans kids. Maybe they should stop watching until something is done to diminish that. 

[beecee]

On 5/27/2022 at 2:03 AM, Peterkin said:

 *Anecdote very far from top elite professional world-class competition, though international. A young friend, who was eight years old at that pre-Covid time, was temporarily relocated to France with her parents. She loves hockey. They do have a Moustiques  (under 9) league, but there were not enough girls in the school district to make up a team and they wouldn't even let her try out for one of the boys' teams. So, tough. She missed two years of development, at a critical age, in the sport at which she excels. Because.... Vive la differance! 

So? More males compete then females. Why? Perhaps males are more aggressivley competitive. Is that wrong? Boys generally play with trains or fire trucks...girls play with dolls and prams. Viva la difference indeed! 🥱

On 5/27/2022 at 2:03 AM, Peterkin said:

Why would you think that?

Because its fact?

On 5/27/2022 at 2:23 AM, CharonY said:

Yes obviously the athletes should be part of the conversation, no doubt about that. That does include transgender athletes. And rather unfortunately quite a few of the laws and rulings do not include consultations with said athletes which, as you said, is patronizing. Note that discussions on this board are purely speculative as AFAIK no one here has ruling power for any sports. It should also add that there is also the issue that sometimes a women's league is desired as women have less support in certain sports due to certain performance assumptions (which we discussed in context of jockeys).

And as I discussed and showed with relation to rugby league and union. It is not an assumption though, as generally speaking women would not be able to compete with men in the rugby codes at most levels...under 10's yes, juniors, seniors and professional ranks, NO. Like I said the average weight for a rugby prop is around 110 kgs of muscle. 

 

On 5/27/2022 at 12:01 AM, MigL said:

If the public perceives the situation as unfair, they stop watching, and that could diminish, or even,end some women's sports.

Yes, I mentioned that earlier...spectators want fairness and close competitions.

 

10 hours ago, dimreepr said:

In @beecee example rugby; why stop a women playing in a male team, if a. she wants too b. she's good enough and tough enough?

Thirdly, I don't care if my peers disapprove, that's why I'm fighting in this corner. 😉

Please explain how this question is not fundamentally about bias, specifically the cultural bias that women are the weaker sex?

It's similar in many ways to your unworkable 'no jails" and sympathies for criminals arguments that you employed in other threads. It won't happen...it's an unreal situation...men are able to absorb big hits that would seriously injure a female. The average rugby prop is around 110 kgs, some much heavier...fit, muscular, professional, and aggressive. You find me a women to compete to equally compete. 

25 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s curious why that same public doesn’t find it unfair to exclude trans kids. Maybe they should stop watching until something is done to diminish that. 

Is that the "public" as you say, or just another peculiarity re American politics? The NRL already has a code attributed to rare circumstances of trans kids and transgenders of any age, on medical and scientific advice.

If it is just a peculiarity re American politics, then you being an American, need to do something about it.

On 5/27/2022 at 6:30 AM, Intoscience said:

Yeah but a woman (in general) at an equivalent weight as a male (in general) even if both athletic in build, is most likely to still be weaker and often slower. That's the thing with male and female forms, the way that fat and muscle is distributed and then called into action when required.  

How about say a sport like tennis? McEnroe was slated for his remark around Serena Williams.

She even agreed that competing against men she would struggle to break the top 400 ceded players. So based on your system, no female would ever be regarded as an elite player. yet she is regarded as the best female player of all time and she certainly exhibits, strength, speed, aggression, skills and she isn't no dainty little lady and is probably capable of beating on most average men. 

Seems like a step backward to me. 

More wise words. Thanks. 

I also gave an example back a couple of pages re some bloke, ranked 203, beating both William sisters, one after the other...quite easily to I might add. 😄

18 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

And I think you further know that defining those curves with reasonable accuracy will be problematic.

Yet somehow you think eliminating the female category and replacing it with a second tier otherwise open category based on choosing some cut off point will lead to an acceptable outcome. (for any group other than the sub-elite XY individuals that will no doubt dominate the category)

I want to know why you think that is likely or even plausible; Why you think you have conceptualized a solution that others can't see. I don't need to know details at this point, and I don't need to know why it's important that society becomes less discriminatory...which I think everyone here agrees with.

 

Yes, I also raised that highlighted bit, but again, like a few other of my valid points, was not commented on.

10 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Thirdly, I don't care if my peers disapprove, that's why I'm fighting in this corner. 😉

Please explain how this question is not fundamentally about bias, specifically the cultural bias that women are the weaker sex?

On the first statement, quite commendable of you, but its not about your peers disapproving, its about whether it is workable or not, and whether it is simply superfluous and merely another example of PC gone mad....similar to the Sydney council wanting to eliminate "merry christmas" and install "happy holidays" because it may offend non christians. 

The second statement, no, its not about bias, its about the observed fact that in some sports, women generally can not compete with men at senior and professional levels. The onus of course is on you to show where women can compete equally with men at a professional level.eg: please show me a 110 kgm female front rower, who is all muscle and would compete with a male of similar size in aggression, toughness, absorbing and giving big hits, speed, etc. 

And of course the women that play rugby league at the professional level in Australia gratefully agree with that. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by beecee

[iNow]

50 minutes ago, beecee said:

Is that the "public" as you say, or just another peculiarity re American politics? The NRL already has a code attributed to rare circumstances of trans kids and transgenders of any age, on medical and scientific advice.

If it is just a peculiarity re American politics, then you being an American, need to do something about it.

Right. And given that I’ve already confirmed that I have a spine, I remain ready to hear precisely what else you suggest. 

52 minutes ago, beecee said:

And of course the women that play rugby league at the professional level in Australia gratefully agree with that. 

 Citation needed. 

[beecee]

9 hours ago, iNow said:

I must first ask you, what is your cut-off point for the definition of "female?"

Sophia Loren? Nicole Kidman?  Elizabeth Taylor? Halle Berry? Cate Blanchett? 

[iNow]

Sigh

[beecee]

29 minutes ago, iNow said:

Right. And given that I’ve already confirmed that I have a spine, I remain ready to hear precisely what else you suggest. 

I'm an Aussie on the other sode of the world matey. Is this an example of what we call passing the buck?  But I'll help you out some....there are some obvious  actions you can take, like starting a petition, canvassing your local congessman, voicing your protest, marching on some government building, etc etc etc. 

29 minutes ago, iNow said:

 Citation needed. 

It's been discussed among some of our professional women rugby players. No I can't direct you to any actual quote, but likewise, you cannot show me any argument by any female professional sports woman asking to compete with men on their level. I'll leave you to it. 

 

24 minutes ago, iNow said:

Sigh

Lighten up matey!!!

29 minutes ago, iNow said:

 Citation needed. 

1 hour ago, beecee said:

And of course the women that play rugby league at the professional level in Australia gratefully agree with that. 

Being a reasonable and fair man iNow, I will modifiy that for you...I should have said  "And of course  generally many of the women that play rugby league at the professional level in Australia gratefully agree with that" 

A photo of the NRLW (National Rugby League for Women) Jilarroo/Australian side along with their male coach.......

Personally, I would love to play against them! 😁

Edited May 27, 2022 by beecee

[iNow]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Is this an example of what we call passing the buck?

No. It’s an example of you refusing to discuss issues in good faith. You suggested I could change the situation by having some backbone. I asked you to elaborate, and here we are. 

You either can’t, won’t, or simply disrespect me so much you’re not willing to show me any courtesy whatsoever or even try. 

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Lighten up matey!!!

This isn’t just an academic exercise. Children are being hurt by this. 

[beecee]

37 minutes ago, iNow said:

No. It’s an example of you refusing to discuss issues in good faith. You suggested I could change the situation by having some backbone. I asked you to elaborate, and here we are. 

No I didn't. I used the phrase back bone referring collectively not singling you out particularly. Have you forgotten already? 

37 minutes ago, iNow said:

You either can’t, won’t, or simply disrespect me so much you’re not willing to show me any courtesy whatsoever or even try. 

What would you like me to do? What sort of courtesy are you expecting? Can you show me where I have been discourtious to you?  Note: I do have a habit of giving back what I get.

37 minutes ago, iNow said:

This isn’t just an academic exercise. Children are being hurt by this. 

You know my thoughts on this, stop pretending I'm pushing something else. The situation is rare and applicable to recent times. The NRL and their rules are fair, comprehensive and cautionary. 

 

38 minutes ago, iNow said:

No. It’s an example of you refusing to discuss issues in good faith. You suggested I could change the situation by having some backbone. I asked you to elaborate, and here we are. 

Oh, and perhaps you missed this bit.....

1 hour ago, beecee said:

 But I'll help you out some....there are some obvious  actions you can take, like starting a petition, canvassing your local congessman, voicing your protest, marching on some government building, etc etc etc. 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by beecee

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, beecee said:

So? More males compete then females. Why? Perhaps males are more aggressivley competitive. Is that wrong? Boys generally play with trains or fire trucks...girls play with dolls and prams. Viva la difference indeed! 

Apparently, little kids who choose gender-inapproriate games deserve to be disappointed.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Peterkin
still won't let me edit - sorry for repeat

[beecee]

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

Apparently, little kids who choose gender-inapproriate games deserve to be disappointed.

Did I say that? Or is this your bias rearing its ugly head?

Read the NRL rules I referenced earlier.

[Peterkin]

43 minutes ago, iNow said:

Children are being hurt by this. 

 

2 hours ago, beecee said:

So? More males compete then females. Why? Perhaps males are more aggressivley competitive. Is that wrong? Boys generally play with trains or fire trucks...girls play with dolls and prams. Viva la difference indeed! 

Apparently, kids who choose the wrong game for their birth-assigned gender deserve to be disappointed. 

the bot ate my homework

[beecee]

You (whoever) can play your red neg games to your heart's content. It changes nothing.🙄

[Peterkin]

2 minutes ago, beecee said:

Read the NRL rules I referenced earlier.

Who gives a flying fig about your NRL? And why do you expect them to?

[beecee]

For those interested in some honesty and argument in good faith, please note....

9 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

 *Anecdote very far from top elite professional world-class competition, though international. A young friend, who was eight years old at that pre-Covid time, was temporarily relocated to France with her parents. She loves hockey. They do have a Moustiques  (under 9) league, but there were not enough girls in the school district to make up a team and they wouldn't even let her try out for one of the boys' teams. So, tough. She missed two years of development, at a critical age, in the sport at which she excels. Because.... Vive la differance! 

No mention of transgender....

My reply....

8 minutes ago, beecee said:

So? More males compete then females. Why? Perhaps males are more aggressivley competitive. Is that wrong? Boys generally play with trains or fire trucks...girls play with dolls and prams. Viva la difference indeed! 🥱

Then it starts... 

13 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Apparently, little kids who choose gender-inapproriate games deserve to be disappointed.

It doesn't work that way in Australia...Ahh well, sadly par for the course it seems. 

9 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Who gives a flying fig about your NRL? And why do you expect them to?

Because that's what I am generally referring to, with of course other examples you have side-stepped.

Why do I expect them to? Because they are a reputable orginisation, controlling the greatest game on the planet. What reasons have you to think they don't give a fig?

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by beecee

[Peterkin]

42 minutes ago, beecee said:

No mention of transgender....

At age 8, she or he may not know what gender they're supposed to be. All they know is, they want more than anything to play the game they love and they're not allowed even to try out. For a little kid, that hurts. A lot. It's that simple.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Peterkin

[StringJunky]

4 hours ago, beecee said:

So? More males compete then females. Why? Perhaps males are more aggressivley competitive. Is that wrong? Boys generally play with trains or fire trucks...girls play with dolls and prams. Viva la difference indeed! 🥱

 

This is only the case because of cultural indoctrination, of which you are victim too, especially in your era as a youth when gender roles were even more markedly defined culturally.

Edited May 28, 2022 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 5/26/2022 at 1:03 PM, Peterkin said:

  *Anecdote very far from top elite professional world-class competition, though international. A young friend, who was eight years old at that pre-Covid time, was temporarily relocated to France with her parents. She loves hockey. They do have a Moustiques  (under 9) league, but there were not enough girls in the school district to make up a team and they wouldn't even let her try out for one of the boys' teams. So, tough. She missed two years of development, at a critical age, in the sport at which she excels. Because.... Vive la differance! 

You probably know this. Assuming you are talking about ice hockey, tryouts in Canada are, and have been for quite some time, open to girls trying out for boys teams. It's certainly important that they are allowed to compete for spots on teams that are appropriate for their level. The better ones often make the top travel teams sometimes well into their early teens. Others struggle around that time but so do some of the boys that go through puberty later than their teammates.

Tryouts to make a category though, are fundamentally different from trying to avoid making one. Which is in part why I feel testing participants for eligibility for a lower level is fundamentally flawed.

14 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Firstly, no one in this thread is a professional athlete AFAIK so no direct interest in who comes first, so why shout unfair?

 

Really? Do you have to be a professional athlete to express concerns for women's sports or transgender inclusion?

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

You probably know this. Assuming you are talking about ice hockey, tryouts in Canada are, and have been for quite some time, open to girls trying out for boys teams.

That's why her parents were so surprised, and a little upset, that they wouldn't let her play in France. But they were guests and had no say in the matter. 

That wasn't edited. It's a stone lie by the same bot that wouldn't let me edit last time. Thing needs a whack upside the chassis.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Peterkin

[dimreepr]

11 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Really? Do you have to be a professional athlete to express concerns for women's sports or transgender inclusion?

No, but why would you? If you haven't got a vested interest in the outcome of a game, I can only imagine it's a vicarious excuse to be indignant; if I'm wrong, please explain how...

15 hours ago, beecee said:

It's similar in many ways to your unworkable 'no jails" and sympathies for criminals arguments that you employed in other threads. It won't happen...it's an unreal situation...men are able to absorb big hits that would seriously injure a female. The average rugby prop is around 110 kgs, some much heavier...fit, muscular, professional, and aggressive. You find me a women to compete to equally compete. 

My sister Bella, she's a big girl and if she put her foot down it would take the entire front row to move her.

You are so blinded by your cultural bias, that anything or anyone that doesn't conform is impossible to see; to the point that if she did beat your arse, you'd pretend not to feel it, from your hospital bed.

I challenge you, also, to come up with an answer to the above question...

My breath, while baited, won't be held; for obvious reason's.  

Edited May 28, 2022 by dimreepr

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

No, but why would you? If you haven't got a vested interest in the outcome of a game, I can only imagine it's a vicarious excuse to be indignant; if I'm wrong, please explain how...

 

First of all you really don't know all the sports I've competed in, coached in, or officiated in, never mind at what levels.

Second, if I had your same attitude, I would suspect a vicarious excuse to be indignant if you were not yourself a female and/or transgender athlete wanting to compete.

Some of the arguments here have not been thought through. This is a chance for us to do it.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

First of all you really don't know all the sports I've competed in, coached in, or officiated in, never mind at what levels.

Second, if I had your same attitude, I would suspect a vicarious excuse to be indignant if you were not yourself a female and/or transgender athlete wanting to compete.

Some of the arguments here have not been thought through. This is a chance for us to do it.

And that explians how, how?

[J.C.MacSwell]

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

And that explians how, how?

You should address my arguments, not your incorrect assumption of my motivation for them.

[dimreepr]

Just now, J.C.MacSwell said:

You should address my arguments, not your incorrect assumption of my motivation for them.

Indeed, just answer my question and my incorrect assumption will be corrected.