Transgender athletes

[iNow]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Some of the arguments here have not been thought through. This is a chance for us to do it.

Perhaps some sports should maintain a distinction between boys and girls, but then we’d need to allow boys who weren’t identified as such by the doctor at birth to still participate… and to allow girls who weren’t identified as such by the doctor at birth to still participate. 

I’m fine with that approach too, but as this thread makes apparent, I’m not the one you must convince to be a partner in seeking ways of editing the existing qualifications. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by iNow

[Moontanman]

I'm not going to read all 1200 posts in this thread but I would like to ask if anyone has thought of the idea of letting trans kids participate in a order by themselves? This is all above my pay grade, maybe i will skim through the posts after all. 

 

[TheVat]

30 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I'm not going to read all 1200 posts in this thread but I would like to ask if anyone has thought of the idea of letting trans kids participate in a order by themselves? This is all above my pay grade, maybe i will skim through the posts after all. 

 

To your first line - excellent choice.  The days I've waded through parts of this thread actually left my thinking more clouded than it was before.  To the next line - trans kids are a tiny percent of kids.  Hard to have a trans team at Podunk High, composed of one or two kids.  And how would kids feel about being off in some "special" category, and how would that foster acceptance by all those cis-kids?  Childhood, as some of may recall, involves being pretty tribal, forming in-groups and out-groups.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by TheVat
whofuckingcareswhyieditedthis

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I'm not going to read all 1200 posts... 

 

Should be required reading for anyone doing anything from making rules for sport...to betting on a horse race...

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

the idea of letting trans kids participate in a order by themselves?

You’re okay with them having clean drinking water so long as they get it from a different water fountain, right? They have a right to education so long as they aren’t attending the same school as your kids. They’re welcome to a hot cooked meal so long as they sit at a different counter… welcome to ride the bus so long as they sit in back, etc.

[StringJunky]

4 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I'm not going to read all 1200 posts in this thread but I would like to ask if anyone has thought of the idea of letting trans kids participate in a order by themselves? This is all above my pay grade, maybe i will skim through the posts after all. 

 

They are too rare and they aren't a distinct class, just as males and females are not binarily distinct. They are all some related variation of the human condition.

[Peterkin]

 

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I would like to ask if anyone has thought of the idea of letting trans kids participate in a order by themselves?

Yes, it's been floated once or twice. However.... Besides the problems mentioned by TheVat, here are a couple more. 

While children who have been assigned the wrong letter at birth usually realize it quite early - between 3 and 7 years - they are not yet articulate or forceful in communicating this. They do express it in conforming to the stereotypical habits of their own gender identity https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1909367116 but their family and community may not accept this as an indication that the child needs his or her assignment changed. They don't often get the support they need to assert their identity. (This communication issue is complicated by several factors, of which prejudice is only one.) Meanwhile their physical development may or may not reflect their psychological development.  In the 6-10 range, when children typically show an interest in sports, and at which the exceptionally talented should start building their skill-set for the elite levels, growth patterns vary a great deal in both cis boys and girls and incorrectly assigned children.

At 7 or 8 years, secondary sexual traits are not a factor in their physical abilities. But it it's already a major - if not the single most important -  factor in how adults classify them. It is at this stage where it's crucial to let each child find their own level, style and peer group. Even if you insist on segregating boys and girls once they approach puberty, at least let them all be normal, feel normal, be recognized as normal and participate normally until then!   

[beecee]

19 hours ago, Peterkin said:

At age 8, she or he may not know what gender they're supposed to be. All they know is, they want more than anything to play the game they love and they're not allowed even to try out. For a little kid, that hurts. A lot. It's that simple.

😊 So you are deciding that for her?

19 hours ago, StringJunky said:

This is only the case because of cultural indoctrination, of which you are victim too, especially in your era as a youth when gender roles were even more markedly defined culturally.

My argument in the main concerns the common sense, scientifically medically based decision that segregation in certain sports is deemed necessary and a must. That won't change. 

The transgender issue is a rare recent debatable subject that my chosen sport, rugby league are already catering for under more scientific medical advice, with sensible cautionary rules, based on the many unknowns at this time.

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

No, but why would you? If you haven't got a vested interest in the outcome of a game, I can only imagine it's a vicarious excuse to be indignant; if I'm wrong, please explain how...

And why would you as a non politician, or position of authority comment on the unworkable no jails, no criminals, justice and torture threads? You are as usual grasping at straws. We all have every right and even knowledge, in commenting on the nature of sport, and the valid reason/s why in some of those sports, sex segregation is needed. That won't change.

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

My sister Bella, she's a big girl and if she put her foot down it would take the entire front row to move her.

Your sister Bella, even if she was 110 kg, would not ever match it with any 110kg, or even 90kg professional rugby player. You claiming she can, is a furphy. 

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

You are so blinded by your cultural bias, that anything or anyone that doesn't conform is impossible to see; to the point that if she did beat your arse, you'd pretend not to feel it, from your hospital bed.

I challenge you, also, to come up with an answer to the above question...

My breath, while baited, won't be held; for obvious reason's.  

For someone who was recently screaming no jails and other such unworkable nonsense, my non existent cultural bias that you claim I have, over rules the  stupidity of your posts in general.

I have given my answers, many of them and the valid reasons why segregation is needed in some sports. And in actual fact, (just like the stupidity suggestion of no jails will never happen) that segregation will remain. Women, will never be allowed, and the vast majority will never want to, play professional rugby league, and other body contact sports against professional men. It won't happen, and that fact alone is what is contributing to the angst shown by many here, sadly.

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, just answer my question and my incorrect assumption will be corrected.

The typical dimreeper, question avoidance so often employed when confronted with reasonable opposition to silly proposals. 😄

[Peterkin]

13 minutes ago, beecee said:

So you are deciding that for her?

Deciding "that" ? No. Asking the organizers to let her try out for the team that exists in her age a weight category.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Peterkin

[beecee]

5 hours ago, iNow said:

Perhaps some sports should maintain a distinction between boys and girls,

No perhaps about it, at least above a certain age. It will always be maintained for the reasons already mentioned.

5 hours ago, iNow said:

 but then we’d need to allow boys who weren’t identified as such by the doctor at birth to still participate… and to allow girls who weren’t identified as such by the doctor at birth to still participate. 

You speak as though this is a common occurence. It isn't, and any situations that develop as a child grows up, is handled with care and decency (based on known medical and scientific advice) at least in my main sporting reference, rugby league.

5 hours ago, iNow said:

I’m fine with that approach too, but as this thread makes apparent, I’m not the one you must convince to be a partner in seeking ways of editing the existing qualifications. 

That's a matter of opinion though, isn't it?  In the main, sports segregation has been with us for yonks, because it has worked and because it is evident what would happen to any professional female, playing against a 110 kg prop forward. Women in body contact sport, compete equally and entertainingly against other professional women. They cannot and will not compete against professional men for obvious reasons, if they wish to remain in the land of the living.

I also gave an example back a couple of pages re some bloke, ranked 203, beating both William sisters, one after the other...quite easily to I might add. No one has mentioned it as yet.😄

1 hour ago, iNow said:

You’re okay with them having clean drinking water so long as they get it from a different water fountain, right? They have a right to education so long as they aren’t attending the same school as your kids. They’re welcome to a hot cooked meal so long as they sit at a different counter… welcome to ride the bus so long as they sit in back, etc.

You're confusing American style racism with valid and reasoned scientific medical advice, at least in rugby league..

7 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Deciding "that" ? No. Asking the organizers to let her try out for the team that exists in her age a weight category.

As long as she is under 10 years of age, that poses no problems with the rules of junior rugby league.

7 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Deciding "that" ? No. Asking the organizers to let her try out for the team that exists in her age a weight category.

And I was of course speaking of the fact of you deciding that she had an identity problem.

4 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I'm not going to read all 1200 posts in this thread but I would like to ask if anyone has thought of the idea of letting trans kids participate in a order by themselves? This is all above my pay grade, maybe i will skim through the posts after all. 

This thread, despite the title, has essentially been about no sex segregation what so ever in any sport. In other words, a professional woman rugby player, should be allowed to play agaisnt a professional 110 kg male player, IF they achieve the same skill, and endurance levels. The "IF" is an absolute furphy if we get right down to the nitty gritty. The facts are men are generally "STRONGER", they are generally "FASTER", they do generally "HIT HARDER" they are generally able to "ABSORB AND TAKE BIG HITS" far better, they are generally "MORE AGGRESSIVE" the are generally "HEAVIER".

Now certainly we may have some women that might be faster then a professional rugby player, but will they be as aggressive? and stronger? and be able to take big hits? and hit harder? and absorb punishment better? 😁

The transgender argument is another matter, that my reference sport alreay have rules for, based on scientific medical advice, (or the lack thereof) as there is much to learn in that regard and much to measure and decipher.

Edited May 28, 2022 by beecee

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

As long as she is under 10 years of age, that poses no problems with the rules of junior rugby league.

That would have been good to know four years ago, if the child had been interested in rugby and her parents had been posted to Australia.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

You're confusing American style racism with valid and reasoned scientific medical advice, at least in rugby league..

If you say so

1 hour ago, beecee said:

The transgender argument is another matter, that my reference sport alreay have rules for

  Cool. We’re good for rugby then. Time to move on to ANY of the hundreds of other sports now, yeah?!?

[beecee]

29 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

That would have been good to know four years ago, if the child had been interested in rugby and her parents had been posted to Australia.

As far as I know, it also applies with other sports including hockey.

https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/cups/wahockey/files/nyddt1wtzl7yirgg.pdf

extract:

Girls playing in boys competition There is no restriction on the number of girls playing in a team in a boy’s grade, however in all age groups other than J 5/6 they do so at their own risk and the child’s parent must give consent (in writing) to the Club before she may participate.

8.4 Boys playing in girls competition 8.4.1 A team playing in a Girls Competition fixture may include a boy if: 8.4.1.1 the boy has not attained the age of 12 years as at the date on which the game is played; 8.4.1.2 the fixture is the only match on a weekend that the boy plays; 8.4.1.3 there are no more than two boys in the team; and 8.4.1.4 there are no more than twelve players in the team.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Of course in reality, other then probably the junior grades, this doesn't happen. The girls have their comp...the boys have their's.

But I welcome all new comers to our great country and its general relaxed, vibrant, realistic culture/s. 😉

17 minutes ago, iNow said:

If you say so 

 That's OK, although in your position, I would have said, correct...or you are right. 

17 minutes ago, iNow said:

  Cool. We’re good for rugby then. Time to move on to ANY of the hundreds of other sports now, yeah?!?

I'm pretty sure that it or similar is also used in other sports, at least in my generally relaxed, vibrant, and realistic culture.

Another sport, (although unique to Australia) that I had limited competition in was surf boat racing. The same strict segregation applies due to the far greater strength of the males......

An incredibly exciting sport, spectator and participant wise, particularly in big seas as the next video shows

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by beecee

[iNow]

34 minutes ago, beecee said:

Another sport, (although unique to Australia) that I had limited competition in was surf boat racing.

Cool. I’m super glad you brought that one up bc it’s TOTALLY relevant to participation in sports being made illegal for trans kids in schools across the US. Surf boat racing is really ultra common in US middle schools. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

9 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, just answer my question and my incorrect assumption will be corrected.

I'll have you know that when I was in my thirties I could run almost as fast as Usain Bolt. I think that changed after I injured my knee (or maybe when he turned six, I can't remember exactly)

[MigL]

12 hours ago, dimreepr said:

No, but why would you? If you haven't got a vested interest in the outcome of a game, I can only imagine it's a vicarious excuse to be indignant; if I'm wrong, please explain how...

 

9 hours ago, dimreepr said:

And that explians how, how?

 

9 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, just answer my question and my incorrect assumption will be corrected.

So are we to assume that you are either a professional level athlete or trans, as you seem to have a vested interest in the outcome of this discussion ?
Or are you looking for an excuse to be indignant, Dim ?

[beecee]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Cool. I’m super glad you brought that one up bc it’s TOTALLY relevant to participation in sports being made illegal for trans kids in schools across the US. Surf boat racing is really ultra common in US middle schools. 

I can find nothing re surf boat racing in the States, can you link to it? Don't be shy! What I'm interested in of course is the exact style compared to what we generally use and what other countries may employ. 

https://www.australianwoodenboatfestival.com.au/the-australian-surfboat/

History and Development

Australian surfboats evolved from whaling longboats and pilot boats built during the nineteenth century for rough sea conditions and durability. The development of surfboats was originally based on rescuing bathers from the surf but over time a sport developed with surfboats racing through the surf, turning a buoy and racing back to the beach. The shifting focus of surfboat design reflects its changing purpose over time. The Australian surfboat has always needed to be suitable for rowing in rough surf conditions and catching waves while increasingly being fast through the water and able to be carried on shore by the crew. 

 

Of course now days they are exclusively used in competition, and not in rescue where we have the more modern, faster unsinkable motor craft.

On your transgender comment, surf boat racing is extremely dangerous and can result in serious injury, giving good reason why sex segregation is a must. Women surf boat competitions are more likely to be cancelled when the surf is up or choppy, whereas the men events, being able to handle heavy weather better because they are stronger, will participate in the more heavy weather.

Don't know the rules re transgenders or whether they compete or not. 

Footy time now, so any more help from my direction you will need to wait for until I return.

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

So are we to assume that you are either a professional level athlete or trans, as you seem to have a vested interest in the outcome of this discussion ?
Or are you looking for an excuse to be indignant, Dim ?

😅😂 What a gem of a comment in reply to the usual silly questions/answers!!!

Edited May 29, 2022 by beecee

[iNow]

51 minutes ago, beecee said:

I can find nothing re surf boat racing in the States, can you link to it?

Facepalm. I’m glad you took my point, even if only indirectly. 

[Moontanman]

5 hours ago, beecee said:

 

This thread, despite the title, has essentially been about no sex segregation what so ever in any sport. In other words, a professional woman rugby player, should be allowed to play agaisnt a professional 110 kg male player, IF they achieve the same skill, and endurance levels. The "IF" is an absolute furphy if we get right down to the nitty gritty. The facts are men are generally "STRONGER", they are generally "FASTER", they do generally "HIT HARDER" they are generally able to "ABSORB AND TAKE BIG HITS" far better, they are generally "MORE AGGRESSIVE" the are generally "HEAVIER".

Now certainly we may have some women that might be faster then a professional rugby player, but will they be as aggressive? and stronger? and be able to take big hits? and hit harder? and absorb punishment better? 😁

The transgender argument is another matter, that my reference sport alreay have rules for, based on scientific medical advice, (or the lack thereof) as there is much to learn in that regard and much to measure and decipher.

I can remember playing sports with girls when I was young, got my clock cleaned by a girl playing football when I was 13, she was 13, by the time I was 15 she was no longer able to dominate me physically, in fact we went to several dances together and she was significantly smaller than me by then. 

Base ball might be a different thing, girls were completive with boys, in sand lot baseball, all through high school.  

[beecee]

7 hours ago, iNow said:

Facepalm. I’m glad you took my point, even if only indirectly. 

Facepalm right back at you! 🥱 Have you a link addressing surf boat racing in the States? 

https://www.redbull.com/au-en/what-is-surfboat-rowing

The madness of surfboating has been unfolding at surf lifesaving clubs around the country since 1908. It's as Australian as a meat pie – but what the hell is it?

Welcome to surfboating. The aim of the game is to row your boat out through the surf and turn around, then catch a wave back to shore. The first boat back to the beach wins. Sounds simple, right? Actually, it’s anything but.

First, a brief history lesson. Before the days of compact combustion engines, surf lifesavers used to row wooden long boats out through the surf to rescue stranded swimmers. As with all surf rescue techniques, lifesavers would compete with other each other to practice rescues and hone their skills.

The first surfboat race was held at Manly Beach all the way back in 1908. Now we can fast-forward back to the present day where rescues are conducted using high-powered outboard engines on inflatable craft, but the subtle art of rowing a boat head first into 8 foot swells has stuck around.

Where did this madness come from?

The sport started as a way for surf lifesaving crews to stay sharp for rescues, but it’s now purely for competition. “There’s no other sport like it,” says Gary Allman, who’s been a surfboat rower (or a ‘boatie’) for over 30 years and currently competes for the Cronulla SLSC. “You need to be as fit as anything and strong – but without guts, you’ll crumble out there.

10 hours ago, iNow said:

Cool. I’m super glad you brought that one up bc it’s TOTALLY relevant to participation in sports being made illegal for trans kids in schools across the US. Surf boat racing is really ultra common in US middle schools. 

As I said earlier, the dangers and the strengths needed in the sport means that the women compete in separate competitions, over shorter distances, and in calmer seas. Female events are inevitably cancelled in heavy seas.

7 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I can remember playing sports with girls when I was young, got my clock cleaned by a girl playing football when I was 13, she was 13, by the time I was 15 she was no longer able to dominate me physically, in fact we went to several dances together and she was significantly smaller than me by then. 

Base ball might be a different thing, girls were completive with boys, in sand lot baseball, all through high school.  

Rugby league and union is played in a mixed foormat, boys and girls together up until the ages of 10 years. Obviously from that point onward, the growing physical differences between the sexes, sees segregation then implemented for fairer and more even competitons, with less chances of impact injuries for the females.

[dimreepr]

11 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I'll have you know that when I was in my thirties I could run almost as fast as Usain Bolt. I think that changed after I injured my knee (or maybe when he turned six, I can't remember exactly)

Ok, let me rephrase my question, if you're not personally involved in the game being played, why would you cry foal/unfair? And why is a physiological advantage unfair to the player's? (every winner, ever, had an advantage of some sort).

10 hours ago, MigL said:

So are we to assume that you are either a professional level athlete or trans, as you seem to have a vested interest in the outcome of this discussion ?

Whatever gave you that idea? My only vested interest is, if I'm fair to other's, other's will be fair to me. 😉

11 hours ago, MigL said:

Or are you looking for an excuse to be indignant, Dim ?

I'm just looking for a reason to care, Mig...

9 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I can remember playing sports with girls when I was young, got my clock cleaned by a girl playing football when I was 13, she was 13, by the time I was 15 she was no longer able to dominate me physically, in fact we went to several dances together and she was significantly smaller than me by then. 

Base ball might be a different thing, girls were completive with boys, in sand lot baseball, all through high school.  

Think of it as people competing with people, in the game of life (also arbitrary in our version)...

[iNow]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Ok, let me rephrase my question, if you're not personally involved in the game being played, why would you cry foal/unfair?

I’m with JCM on this one. We can all advocate for better without having direct personal involvement. We can and should be be allies at any time and on any issue we want. 

4 hours ago, beecee said:

Facepalm right back at you! 🥱 Have you a link addressing surf boat racing in the States? 

I see you’re unfamiliar with sarcasm.

In case it’s being missed again, this comment was sarcastic, too. I know you’re familiar with sarcasm. 

4 hours ago, beecee said:

Welcome to surfboating.

Unless laws are being passed to prevent middle school and high school aged trans children from competing, I don’t care. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by iNow

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

 

Unless laws are being passed to prevent middle school and high school aged trans children from competing, I don’t care. 

Wouldn't want trans middle school kids to miss out on risking their lives along with the other children...😄

[beecee]

6 hours ago, iNow said:

I see you’re unfamiliar with sarcasm.

In case it’s being missed again, this comment was sarcastic, too. I know you’re familiar with sarcasm. 

Unless laws are being passed to prevent middle school and high school aged trans children from competing, I don’t care. 

🙄 Apologies for missing your sarcasm. Perhaps I'm taking this subject more serious then you and actually deal in facts.

“For me, men's tennis and women's tennis are completely, almost, two separate sports,” Williams said. “If I were to play Andy Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes. No, it's true. It's a completely different sport.26 June 2017

https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-the-williams-sisters-vs-karsten-braasch-the-world-no-203-destroyed-serena-williams-venus-williams-battle-sexes#:~:text=Williams sisters v Karsten Braasch,fun” and still beat them.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/tennis-news-wta-atp-i-would-lose-6-0-6-0-in-five-minutes-serena-williams-on-playing-against-andy-murray/

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

[StringJunky]

How has this morphed into men vs women when it's about transgenders and their suitability to play in leagues outside their assigned birth gender? It's not a given that that trans-women will carry their cis-male characteristics into the female game.

Edited May 29, 2022 by StringJunky