Transgender athletes

[iNow]

8 hours ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Did the point regarding the Williams Sister completely flew over your head?

No, but it’s wholly irrelevant to my own focus on the 99.9% of sports being played by kids in schools, as in those who are NOT engaging at the pinnacle most elite levels that nearly nobody who plays sports ever successfully advances to.  

[J.C.MacSwell]

@ Dim

When knowingly avoiding the context, what's the point of posting?

Edited June 18, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

When knowingly avoiding the context, what's the point of posting?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Last I checked, elite athletes (all 6 of them) weren’t being blocked by state legislation from competing while trans.

Edited June 18, 2022 by iNow

[J.C.MacSwell]

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

No, but it’s wholly irrelevant to my own focus on the 99.9% of sports being played by kids in schools, as in those who are NOT engaging at the pinnacle most elite levels that nearly nobody who plays sports ever successfully advances to.  

If it's about percentages:

What percentage participate hoping to someday  advance to elite level, and in particular, what percent of females do so looking up to female role models?

(I do get that potential trans individuals deserve the same...but if based on percentages as you suggest it should not be part of your focus)

[iNow]

I have no interest in hunting red herrings right now. Maybe later

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Last I checked, elite athletes (all 6 of them) weren’t being blocked by state legislation from competing while trans.

 

3 hours ago, iNow said:

I have no interest in hunting red herrings right now. Maybe later

Well that's a fine kettle of fish...

[iNow]

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

What percentage participate hoping to someday  advance to elite level, and in particular, what percent of females do so looking up to female role models?

If my position is that this issue exists at the youth sports level and it’s school sports where children are being actively excluded via legislation due to being trans, then the percent is zero. There are functionally zero trans people at elite level of sports today to look up to. Elite trans athletes are also not the ones being targeted so it strikes me as a peripheral distraction to continually focus there. 

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I do get that potential trans individuals deserve the same...but if based on percentages as you suggest it should not be part of your focus

The problem is not with elite level sports. Nearly nobody who ever competes makes it to that level. Focusing there… where legislation is not targeting trans people anyway… is a mistake that derails meaningful discussion and possible progress. 

[AIkonoklazt]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Because women want to play and people want to watch.

It's you that doesn't seem to get it, sport is a story and jeopardy is what pays the bill's; the FA cup for instance is open to every team in the country (ignore the gender), a non league (semi-professional) club will occasionally (by which I mean every year) win against a club 100's of place's above them, sometimes they do it twice (by which I mean nearly every year); the press descend and suddenly everyone is more interested in them than they are in Liverpool or Manchester united, the best pay day in Forest Green Rover's history and as a fan, I remember that year; I can't remember who won the cup though...

Too bad tennis isn't remotely the same sport. How'd you like it when women are completely shut out of all major tournaments (even minor ones)? They can't get in by rank or even by wild card if you get rid of WTA. Also, you still ignore what happened to the Williams Sisters. They didn't win like the club team you referred to- They lost badly- To someone outside the top 200. You're drawing on invalid parallels.

How about this- Ask any woman tennis player out there about getting rid of WTA tour. I have a feeling people in here never even follow the sport.

4 hours ago, iNow said:

No, but it’s wholly irrelevant to my own focus on the 99.9% of sports being played by kids in schools, as in those who are NOT engaging at the pinnacle most elite levels that nearly nobody who plays sports ever successfully advances to.  

...and you think the situation in school tournaments are completely different because.......? Can you offer one single thing to back up what you're saying? Again, people in this forum doesn't seem to follow tennis nor have played it.

Girls back in my high school, as well as others, would have been shut out of tournaments the same way. One of my friends back then was the #1 ranked tennis player in my school, and while his sister was also on the team her shots were nowhere even close to his- Same with other players on the girl's team when compared with guys. You'd be practically telling most if not all girls to not go to school tournaments because they can't qualify.

Do people even realize that in some sports such as tennis, inclusion MEANS having separate men's and women's games? Outside of competition people can play all they want however they want, while tournaments are a whole other animal. You would be taking girls and women out of the competitive game with your completely misapplied version of "inclusion."

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Fairness in the top 200...no problemo.

For mens play:

Those with no Y chromosomes play on the usual markings on their side of the court, but get to use the doubles markings on the other side if a Y chromosome individual is playing them.

Markings can be adjusted until there are as many trans men in the top 200 as cisgender men.

For womens play:

Those with any Y chromosomes must use a smaller racket.

Racket size can be adjusted until there are as many cisgender women in the top 200 as trans women.

Easy-Peasy.

Other associations may form to try to keep the balance differently, and possibly there might also be a  Non-gender league that forms where only those with no Y chromosomes play in one division and those with one in another.

Win for everyone as they can all choose what league they might wish to play in. Compensation and prize money to be determined by each association based on costs and revenues.

People don't have to play tennis to understand what I'm about to say.

How is a handicapped game appealing in any sport? Would you like Olympics and Paraolympics combied for "fairness and inclusion"?

Have you watched men's and women's tennis on TV or in person? Now imagine what happens to it once you put all those stuff about different rackets in. It's fine to adjust things such as which line count as side line (as it has happened in exibition matches) but rackets? Seriously?

Edited June 18, 2022 by AIkonoklazt
school tournaments

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

...but rackets? Seriously?

What's wrong with different sized rackets?

You sound like one of those "elitists" that would rather watch the likes of Usain Bolt in an all XY Olympic 100m mens final than allow trans men a fighting chance and a 0.91 second head start.

[AIkonoklazt]

Just now, J.C.MacSwell said:

What's wrong with different sized rackets?

You sound like one of those "elitists" that would rather watch the likes of Usain Bolt in an all XY Olympic 100m mens final than allow trans men a fighting chance and a 0.91 second head start.

Players choose their rackets in tennis. This isn't auto racing.

Are you sure you're doing trans men a favor by what you're proposing? What race are they winning and which records are they challenging then?

Now the name-calling begins yet again, I see. Who or what do you think I'm trying to include or exclude via my argumentation? See my response regarding women's tennis.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

and you think the situation in school tournaments are completely different because.......? Can you offer one single thing to back up what you're saying?

The laws being passed in state legislatures are focused on school and youth sports, not elite sports. What backup do you request in support of this point?

[MigL]

Come on, INow ...

6 hours ago, iNow said:

No, but it’s wholly irrelevant to my own focus on the 99.9% of sports being played by kids in schools, as in those who are NOT engaging at the pinnacle most elite levels that nearly nobody who plays sports ever successfully advances to.

When this thread started concentrating on professional athletes in sports, you said you wanted to discuss trans kids being legislated out of recreational sports.
You then started another thread to concentrate on that issue so that this one could remain about competitive professional sports, and the inclusion of trans ( all 6 of them ) athletes in various divisions of the sports.

Now you want to concentrate this thread also on the same subject as the other thread you opened.
We already have one; why not post your concerns about trans kids recreational sports involvement there ?

[iNow]

Perhaps you feel otherwise, but when others direct questions to me and ask me personally to respond to their very narrow point, it doesn’t strike me as unreasonable to remind them of where my own position is focused. YMMV

[mistermack]

On 6/17/2022 at 12:49 PM, dimreepr said:

Even if it's spherical and in a vacuum? 

That's your pituatry gland.

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 hours ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Players choose their rackets in tennis. This isn't auto racing.

Are you sure you're doing trans men a favor by what you're proposing? What race are they winning and which records are they challenging then?

Now the name-calling begins yet again, I see. Who or what do you think I'm trying to include or exclude via my argumentation? See my response regarding women's tennis.

Sorry Alkonoklazt. I'm only being facetious. It's been a common theme in the thread by some posters that somehow it can be made fair to allow trans women to compete in elite sports in some practical manner without threatening women's sport, even though there are far more men that can compete at the elite women's level than there are women that can.

Anyone that believes this to be true in physical sports understands little about the biology or is being extremely short sighted on the social impact on the transgenders being encouraged to compete (IMO of course).

So I'm taking the position that trans men deserve there chance in men's sport every bit as much as it's claimed trans women do in women's sport. Why wouldn't they?

As to the weak "it's only 6 individuals argument" it should be only a matter of time for there to be plenty more unless it's intended to maintain a social stigma against them competing...a very unhealthy situation for a vulnerable section of our populations.

[iNow]

55 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Anyone that believes this to be true in physical sports understands little about the biology or is being extremely short sighted on the social impact

Or, perhaps they understand biology just fine and simply prioritize different things than you do in context of fairness within games made up of arbitrary rules. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by iNow

[AIkonoklazt]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Sorry Alkonoklazt. I'm only being facetious. It's been a common theme in the thread by some posters that somehow it can be made fair to allow trans women to compete in elite sports in some practical manner without threatening women's sport, even though there are far more men that can compete at the elite women's level than there are women that can.

Anyone that believes this to be true in physical sports understands little about the biology or is being extremely short sighted on the social impact on the transgenders being encouraged to compete (IMO of course).

So I'm taking the position that trans men deserve there chance in men's sport every bit as much as it's claimed trans women do in women's sport. Why wouldn't they?

As to the weak "it's only 6 individuals argument" it should be only a matter of time for there to be plenty more unless it's intended to maintain a social stigma against them competing...a very unhealthy situation for a vulnerable section of our populations.

I complete agree with you that trans men deserve their chance in men's sports every bit as much as trans women in women's sports. It's just that there are probably better ways of doing so than adding even more rules as they're likely to worsen stigma rather than alleviate.

I couldn't for the life of me find the example I saw maybe late last year or early this year, but there was a transgender collegiate woman cross country athlete who didn't manage the make her team after the mandated transitioning wait period. After everything she had been through, it would just be too much to ask her to endure even more regulation and/or handicapping on top. All I could find right now is the example of a successful collegiate transgender woman cross country athlete:

https://www.outsports.com/2019/8/30/20834159/juniper-eastwood-transgender-runner-division-i-cross-country-track-and-field-university-of-montana
 

I'm fairly certain Ms Eastwood wouldn't want to put up with more regulations or handicapping either. There are many other transgender athletes in the sport that aren't successful enough to get a lot of press coverage, so you're right about the inevitable entrance of more and more transgender sports competitors.

[J.C.MacSwell]

58 minutes ago, iNow said:

Or, perhaps they understand biology just fine and simply prioritize different things than you do in context of fairness within games made up of arbitrary rules. 

thus the "or"

But in that case I maintain they are hanging the very people they believe they are helping, out to dry.

Let's not forget that many pseudo biologists had: 

1. Been claiming to be experts in biology and sport

2. been claiming that trans women could compete fairly in physical sports on testosterone suppression alone.

3. Suggested it could be done in a healthy manner for the trans women

4. Actually had their ideas given credence my sports bodies, despite the obvious lack of science (and common sense when readily available facts are considered) behind it

I say pseudo biologists despite their capabilities, with respect to actual biologists...a group they can include themselves in when they actually do science.and don't let their emotions and politics get in the way.

 

[druS]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-20/fina-votes-to-restrict-transgender-swimmers-in-competition/101166220

• Female to male transgender athletes can compete in Male events
• Male to female transgender athletes can not compete in Female events - unless
  • Transition occurred prior to a puberty benchmark
• A new category of "open" which includes male to female transgender athletes

Given the level of support discussed here from biological science, has FINA got it wrong? [I can see some unintended and unfortunate consequences from the policy.]

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by druS

[Alex_Krycek]

1 hour ago, druS said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-20/fina-votes-to-restrict-transgender-swimmers-in-competition/101166220

• Female to male transgender athletes can compete in Male events
• Male to female transgender athletes can not compete in Female events - unless
  • Transition occurred prior to a puberty benchmark
• A new category of "open" which includes male to female transgender athletes

Given the level of support discussed here from biological science, has FINA got it wrong? [I can see some unintended and unfortunate consequences from the policy.]

 

FINA got it right in my opinion.  Transgender athletes like Lia Thomas are unfairly competing in the women's category.  As FINA stated, this is about fairness.  They will create an "open" category for all others to compete in.

[J.C.MacSwell]

The new policy states transgender women must prove they had not experienced male puberty "beyond Tanner Stage 2 [of puberty] or before age 12, whichever is later"

Essentially this will disclude trans women from elite female swimming.

It may also influence a guideline for competitive sports above recreational.

Although there surely can be rare and reasonable medical interventions prior to 12 years old, anyone else messing with childrens biology before 12 to the degree required need to be held accountable for any and all adverse effects IMO.

Edited June 20, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

anyone else messing with childrens biology before 12 to the degree required need to be held accountable for any and all adverse effects IMO.

I understand where you’re coming from on this. In reality, if the kid decides they’re trans it seems like it happens closer to 8 or 9 and they’re going to passionately wish to avoid being forced to let puberty change their body in a manner which contradicts their mind… that ignores their self identity.

It’s not an easy situation, but it’s wrong of you and others IMO to assume parents are criminals who should be held accountable for accepting and supporting their kids early in receiving hormone blockers and/or supplements. 

“Not your kid. Not your problem. Leave your personal morality out of my house. You don’t get to dictate to me how to handle my offshoring. You raise your kids and I’ll raise mine.”

Doesn’t this perspective also resonate with you? Can you understand where parents of trans kids are coming from?

[zapatos]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

Doesn’t this perspective also resonate with you? Can you understand where parents of trans kids are coming from?

I think what the people (not referring to people here) who make the snarky comments about trans children and their parents fail to understand is how incredibly difficult this must be for the parents. They are going through something that is likely to have a hugely difficult impact on the person they love most. They would do anything for their kids and are dealing with what could be the most difficult thing they will ever have to address. They are trying harder than anyone to do the right thing for their child. They care more than anyone.

And then  some troll makes totally uninformed criticisms about some very personal and difficult family situation that has nothing to do with them. It really disgusts me how uncaring some people are for their fellow human beings.

[MigL]

At the age of 8 or 9 ?
If you ask most kids what they want to be when they grow up most will say an astronaut or a princess.
And if they actually knew, the world would be full of astronauts and princesses.

This is a science forum; lets try to be a little more scientific in our analysis.

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

This is a science forum; lets try to be a little more scientific in our analysis.

Yes. Forgive me. Was just speaking from experience with people I actually know. I’ll try being more academic next time so we may remove their humanity and dehumanize them even more than the rest of society is already doing.