Transgender athletes

[MigL]

Sure.
Lets base kids physical and mental health on an emotional response, instead of a rational one.

[iNow]

How is it rational for a parent to force their child to ignore their self-identity, disregard who they are, and force them through irreversible changes all so they live a lie intended only to please puritanical nosy nellys they’ll never even meet?

[Intoscience]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

How is it rational for a parent to force their child to ignore their self-identity, disregard who they are, and force them through irreversible changes all so they live a lie intended only to please puritanical nosy nellys they’ll never even meet?

It's a difficult one, especially when decisions are made from emotional response. Not sure though if a child at 8/9 is mature and experienced enough to understand the implications of making such a life changing decision? After all, a child at that age would not even likely concern themselves with a good diet and education, more likely to eat candy and go just play and have fun all day.

So at this point it becomes the responsibility of the parents to do what they regard as "best" for their child. It's even more difficult when different parents share differing opinions on what is the "best" way to raise their kids. 

Back to the thread,

There is nothing stopping the rules from being changed in sports to allow for an "open to all" event, but there is no getting away from the fact that in many sporting disciplines the events will be predominantly dominated by men.  At the elite level (I know you are not interested in this area, as you seem to feel that its irrelevant) where the money, spectacle and exposure is, this dominance will be even more pronounced and will result in non-inclusion for many, mainly females. 

I really don't see how this is a forward step - you are welcome to compete, but you are unlikely to win anything 

[iNow]

4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

So at this point it becomes the responsibility of the parents to do what they regard as "best" for their child.

Precisely right, and yet here we are with the “freedom” crowd trying to legislate that choice completely away from parents themselves, and admonishing them in-person and online at nearly every turn, even here at the otherwise knowledgeable, accepting, and reasonable crowd at SFN. 

9 hours ago, zapatos said:

It really disgusts me how uncaring some people are for their fellow human beings.

Not only is it dehumanizing for trans people, but it’s an attempt to whip up tribalism and easy bogeymen like happened to Jews, all while autocratically removing freedoms from free parents in a free country. It’s a power grab by authoritarians and demagogues. 

The topic of “fairness in sports” and “we must protect female athletes” just happens to be where they pickup the most non-authoritarian allies in support of their own demagogic undemocratic goals. 

[zapatos]

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I really don't see how this is a forward step - you are welcome to compete, but you are unlikely to win anything 

I think I see the fundamental difference in our thinking here. You believe it is about winning, while we believe it is about being welcome to compete.

9 hours ago, MigL said:

At the age of 8 or 9 ?
If you ask most kids what they want to be when they grow up most will say an astronaut or a princess.
And if they actually knew, the world would be full of astronauts and princesses.

This is a science forum; lets try to be a little more scientific in our analysis.

My understanding is that physicians recommend beginning puberty blockers prior to them reaching puberty. This allows the child to mature more before making a final decision on gender. Isn't following the medical advice of physicians who specialize in gender being "a little more scientific"?

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Not sure though if a child at 8/9 is mature and experienced enough to understand the implications of making such a life changing decision?

That is the point of the puberty blockers. Delay puberty until they ARE mature and experienced enough.

This is what Texas is stopping by outlawing "gender affirming care". 

Edited June 20, 2022 by zapatos

[TheVat]

38 minutes ago, zapatos said:

 

My understanding is that physicians recommend beginning puberty blockers prior to them reaching puberty. This allows the child to mature more before making a final decision on gender. Isn't following the medical advice of physicians who specialize in gender being "a little more scientific"?

If there's an aspect of science that's relevant, it may be in developmental psychology as well as medicine.  And there may be some debate there as to how determined gender identity is early in childhood.  And how much culture influences body dysphorias.  And to what degree children play with alternative identities before finding their way towards a firmer sense of self.

If puberty blockers allow more time to look before they leap, or snip, that may be a good thing.  

I still have personal reservations about GRA, while trying to support as much as I can the quest for identity.  Sometimes it seems like our society has expectations of gender that make it difficult to fully embrace either set of traditional roles.  Gender dysphoria is an understandable response.

 

[StringJunky]

39 minutes ago, TheVat said:

If there's an aspect of science that's relevant, it may be in developmental psychology as well as medicine.  And there may be some debate there as to how determined gender identity is early in childhood.  And how much culture influences body dysphorias.  And to what degree children play with alternative identities before finding their way towards a firmer sense of self.

If puberty blockers allow more time to look before they leap, or snip, that may be a good thing.  

I still have personal reservations about GRA, while trying to support as much as I can the quest for identity.  Sometimes it seems like our society has expectations of gender that make it difficult to fully embrace either set of traditional roles.  Gender dysphoria is an understandable response.

 

The other issue is the societal expectation that people fall into one of the categories. I'm sure some gender dysphorics are just gender-fluid and just want to be what they are, when they are, without any aspiration towards surgical reassignment.

[MigL]

10 hours ago, iNow said:

How is it rational for a parent to force their child to ignore their self-identity, disregard who they are, and force them through irreversible changes

Please insert the words 'think they' between 'they' and 'are'.

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Precisely right, and yet here we are with the “freedom” crowd trying to legislate that choice completely away from parents themselves, and admonishing them in-person and online at nearly every turn, even here at the otherwise knowledgeable, accepting, and reasonable crowd at SFN. 

Who exactly is this 'freedom crowd' ?
And since you include the knowledgeable, accepting and reasonable crowd at SFN, what legislation are we trying to introduce ?

An 8 year old will want ice cream for breakfast, lunch and dinner; will a 'responsible' parent say"My child's feelings will be hurt if I don't give him/her ice cream for breakfast, lunch and dinner, every day, because that 8 year old knows what is best for him/her.",.
Is that what you did when raising your kids ?
Somehow I doubt it.

3 hours ago, iNow said:

The topic of “fairness in sports” and “we must protect female athletes” just happens to be where they pickup the most non-authoritarian allies in support of their own demagogic undemocratic goals. 

Or maybe we actually ARE concerned about the effect it will have on female professional sports.
Why are youu always willing to misconstrue others' opinions when they clash with yours. Is what is typed not good enough that you need to interpret according to your own biases ?

Another example ...

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Not only is it dehumanizing for trans people, but it’s an attempt to whip up tribalism and easy bogeymen like happened to Jews, all while autocratically removing freedoms from free parents in a free country.

Sometimes life is unfair. Sometimes people lose an eye, have no depth perception, and can't play baseball worth a sh*t anymore. Sometimes they have a car accident and become paralized, and can't play any sports. Sometimes reality sucks, is offensive, and keeps you from doing the things you want to do.

But to say those are attempts to 'whip up tribalism', blame these unfortunate people for all sorts of things, and send them to the gas ovens ( like the Jews ), is again misconstruing my posts, and way 'over the top' sensationalist.

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

That is the point of the puberty blockers. Delay puberty until they ARE mature and experienced enough.

And of course these puberty blockers are 100 % reversible ?
Or does the very fact that puberty is delayed contribute to an irreversible development of the child, making them that much more confused about their gender as they approach adulthood ?
I think places like Texas are wrong to bring in banning legislation; this is a decision to be made by doctor and parent as to what is best for the child.
But see the Bill Maher video clip I posted earlier; why are more kids ( and parents and doctors ) more likely to have children undergo these therapies in California as opposed to Ohio ?
Is it something in the water ?
Or is it 'trendy' in certain 'liberal' areas ?
( at the same time keeping in mind that it is much more acceptable, and less stigmatized in some areas than in others )

56 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I'm sure some gender dysphorics are just gender-fluid and just want to be what they are

That used to be called 'confusion' about what you are.
Now the condition has a fancy, trendy, name.

Edited June 20, 2022 by MigL

[zapatos]

14 minutes ago, MigL said:

And of course these puberty blockers are 100 % reversible ?

Yes. Stop taking them and puberty continues.

 

14 minutes ago, MigL said:

Or does the very fact that puberty is delayed contribute to an irreversible development of the child, making them that much more confused about their gender as they approach adulthood ?

Do you have any evidence to support that?

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

That used to be called 'confusion' about what you are.
Now the condition has a fancy, trendy, name.

Soldiers used to suffer from 'shell shock', and women suffered from 'hysteria'. Fortunately the advance of science and medicine has led to better understanding and allowed us to give those conditions fancy, trendy names to better represent reality. After all, "confusion" is not really a very useful or accurate term for what these kids are going through.

You make it sound like you think doctors are not taking this seriously, or using scientific, evidence based medicine. Even if that is not what you meant, that type of flippant remark is very insulting to those who are professionals and trying to improve the lives of children in very difficult circumstances.

[MigL]

5 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Yes. Stop taking them and puberty continues.

Do you have any evidence to support that it does as if you had not taken the blockers ?
You made that claim originally, I just questioned it.
You require the evidence, and without such, I am allowed to question it.

[iNow]

34 minutes ago, MigL said:

Who exactly is this 'freedom crowd' ?

GOP legislators across US states who chant about freedom when it comes to wearing masks during pandemics and ownership of guns, but who are perfectly fine taking away freedoms when it involves abortion and parents approach to their trans children, or their freedom to compete in non-elite level sports. 

I should’ve been more clear that I wasn’t referring to members engaging here in this thread. 

37 minutes ago, MigL said:

Or maybe we actually ARE concerned about the effect it will have on female professional sports.

Right, I know this is true. That’s my point. Your valid concerns are being used to add weight to the discriminatory agenda of others. The circles of this Venn diagram overlap quite a bit, and that’s precisely why this topic is being force injected into cultural discourse. It adds legitimacy and weight to an otherwise vacuous cause. 

40 minutes ago, MigL said:

But to say those are attempts to 'whip up tribalism', blame these unfortunate people for all sorts of things, and send them to the gas ovens ( like the Jews ), is again misconstruing my posts, and way 'over the top' sensationalist.

We seem to be talking passed each other. Again, my comments were specific to demagogues and autocrats, not you and others here at SFN. 

41 minutes ago, MigL said:

And of course these puberty blockers are 100 % reversible ?

It pretty much is, but even if it’s not, unless these are YOUR children, how is it your place to decide? This is an area where authoritarianism creeps in. You don’t get to decide how others raise their children. You can disagree, but their choice is theirs to make… unless you live in any of the many GOP led states making it illegal… which ties back to my previous point. 

All these people worshiping at the alter of freedom only truly support it when it aligns with their own personal version of morality. If it doesn’t, then they’re perfectly happy imposing their own ideals on to others. 

[MigL]

10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

You make it sound like you think doctors are not taking this seriously, or using scientific, evidence based medicine. Even if that is not what you meant, that type of flippant remark is very insulting to those who are professionals and trying to improve the lives of children in very difficult circumstances.

Absolutely right.
So why are doctors recommending puberty blockers and gender reassignment much mor often in LA than in Cincinnati ?

About a century ago, in Canada, politicians, doctors, and the Clergy did what they thought was best for indigenous kids. They took them from their family and Tribe, and put them in Residential schools. The thinking was that they would integrate better with society.
That was social engineering, and it failed miserably.

Now we are doing the same with the gender of our kids.
I sure hope this version of social engineering works out bettter.

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

Right, I know this is true. That’s my point. Your valid concerns are being used to add weight to the discriminatory agenda of others.

So should I ignore my concerns, and problems I see with society,because of others' unscrupulous use ?
Sould Swansont not have gotten a degree in Physics because unscrupulous people may use any knowledge gained through his research, to build more efficient atomic weapons ?

[iNow]

9 minutes ago, MigL said:

So should I ignore my concerns, and problems I see with society,because of others' unscrupulous use ?

At the very least, be aware of how your comments are perceived in this context. Whether you intend to or not, you’re aligning yourself with a cause you likely don’t support. 

[zapatos]

26 minutes ago, MigL said:

Do you have any evidence to support that it does as if you had not taken the blockers ?

Quote

There are no known irreversible effects of puberty blockers. If you decide to stop taking them, your body will go through puberty just the way it would have if you had not taken puberty blockers at all.

http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-transition/medical-affirmation-transition/puberty-blockers-for-youth

18 minutes ago, MigL said:

Absolutely right.

Well then I guess we have no more to discuss.

[TheVat]

Maybe some uncertainty about hormone treatments and such is that most people don't understand, as they would with oncology say, where the expertise lies and why listening to the expert is vital.  If you have a patient who would like chemotherapy, but the doctor vetoes it, then they don't get chemo - with a purely physical condition, we generally understand there's a clearly defined person or group who can determine the best interests of the patient.  But if you have a ten year old boy who has been putting on dresses and insisting you call him Betty, there is an array of psychological and cultural perspectives vying for attention.  So the decision to have Betty hold off puberty while many of B's friends are starting to get new hairy places and deeper voices, has all kinds of ramifications that aren't as clearly about the healing process or a single branch of medicine.  

To many people, the claim that a child can best find happiness by changing their gender is one subject to Sagan's Law, i.e. an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.   And yes, that may be hard for the kid who would really benefit from a big gender makeover.  But many parents are going to be reluctant to do anything so life-altering just because a doctor says so.  Anyone who follows modern medicine is aware of the fallibility of doctors, even doctors with the best intentions and latest science.  

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

That used to be called 'confusion' about what you are.
Now the condition has a fancy, trendy, name.

That's generally what happens when something becomes recognized and understood better. It's not unusual.

[MigL]

even if we disregard the physical ramifications of the procedure, such as putting off bone desity increases until later in life when it is most difficult, what about the mental distress.
A pre-pubescent boy is put on puberty blockers because his parents and doctor think he may better 'fit in' and be happier as a girl, and want to give him time to explore that possibility. All well and good.
Then he gets to high school, where he is the smallest ( height, shoulder width ) boy, with a high pitched voice and no facial hair.
His life is made miserable by his schoolmates, who pick on him, bully him and call him names.
He finally tries to hurt himself, or even commits suicide.
Yet that is seen as intolerance for trans kids, even though had he not been given puberty blockers, he would have been a star atlete, dated cheerleaders, and been one of the ones picking on small, underdeveloped schoolmates ( 😵 ).

Why is it we refuse to aknowledge reality, and feel we can modify nature according to our whims and ( sometimes misguided ) wants ?
But I guess, that question can be asked of Global Warming deniers also.

Are you sure there's nothing further to discuss ?

By the way, I'm attempting to be humorous by comparing you to Global Warming deniers. Bill Maher does a much better job with the humor, and if you haven't watched the clip I posted, do so.
It won't convince you, but it is hilarious.
 

[iNow]

42 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why is it we refuse to aknowledge reality, and feel we can modify nature according to our whims and ( sometimes misguided ) wants ?

Could just as easily ask you the same thing for suggesting trans kids are unnatural when they’re not

[CharonY]

39 minutes ago, MigL said:

Then he gets to high school, where he is the smallest ( height, shoulder width ) boy, with a high pitched voice and no facial hair.
His life is made miserable by his schoolmates, who pick on him, bully him and call him names.

He finally tries to hurt himself, or even commits suicide.

What about the opposite forcing them through a change in their bodies that just does not fit with their brains? 

It is a well-established fact that transgender people are at a much higher risk of suicide. They basically have two choices. Pretend what what they don't feel, in order to conform. This potentially can reduce harassment (not sure whether there is data on that), but it increases risk of self-harm. Or they can undergo social transition, which results in short-term benefits in terms of mental health, but can lead to harassment, which in the longer term again increases self-harm risk.

What you seem to fail to understand is that puberty blockers and gender-affirming procedures are recommended by medical professionals, because they improve overall health. 

Let's follow the data a bit. There is a significant body of evidence showing that kids taking puberty blockers are at lower risk of suicide and other forms of self harm (see e.g. https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2019-1725 https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2013-2958 https://psycnet.apa.org/doi/10.1037/cpp0000288) and improved well-being.

Now, it does not mean that it is a one-size fits-all situation, but in contrast to the imagined example, the data at least indicates that it is more likely to be detrimental than harmful. There might be better ways out there, but clearly just let them ride it out currently has the worst outcome in terms of suicide and other mental health challenges.

 

59 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why is it we refuse to aknowledge reality, and feel we can modify nature according to our whims and ( sometimes misguided ) wants ?

So why do we build homes, eat warm meals regularly take insulin, wear glasses and so on? All of that effects our biology in various ways.

[TheVat]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

 

 

What you seem to fail to understand is that puberty blockers and gender-affirming procedures are recommended by medical professionals, because they improve overall health. 

Let's follow the data a bit. There is a significant body of evidence showing that kids taking puberty blockers are at lower risk of suicide and other forms of self harm...

I think, to be fair to those questioning the basic psychology and wisdom behind all this, it's okay to ask how these correlations work.  For example, does puberty blocking improve overall health because they are fitting in with their subculture in, say, California, and so their decrease in social stress is improving physical markers and decreasing suicidal ideation?  Or is it because they are fundamentally a different gender than the birth one and this is a genuine improvement of physical functioning?  Does the improved health effect show the same degree in Vickburg MS as it does in Berkeley CA?  Is it roughly the same in Houston and Stockholm? (actually Stockholm wouldn't work now in such comparatives because Swedes have banned puberty blockers due to, cough, ahem, unresolved scientific questions)

Causation is important here.  If I reduce a child's suicidal thoughts and boost their health by raising them in a Truman Show simulation, that might not be worth it.   I might choose some other therapeutic path for them to feel better, in spite of the positive correlation between Truman Show fake reality and "overall health."

So it's fair for @MigL et al to ask if there are other solutions to alienation and depression of gender dysphorics that might lie in other domains than the pharmaceutical.   Maybe there are no others that can work, but it's still worth exploring before seriously altering a child's body (or later on, removing pieces of it).

 

[CharonY]

11 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I think, to be fair to those questioning the basic psychology and wisdom behind all this, it's okay to ask how these correlations work.  For example, does puberty blocking improve overall health because they are fitting in with their subculture in, say, California, and so their decrease in social stress is improving physical markers and decreasing suicidal ideation?  Or is it because they are fundamentally a different gender than the birth one and this is a genuine improvement of physical functioning?  Does the improved health effect show the same degree in Vickburg MS as it does in Berkeley CA?  Is it roughly the same in Houston and Stockholm? (actually Stockholm wouldn't work now in such comparatives because Swedes have banned puberty blockers due to, cough, ahem, unresolved scientific questions)

Here, I would ask whether there is any evidence that mental health is different in California than elsewhere. But the cited studies had US (nationwide) cohorts, as well as from the Netherlands. But the decision from Sweden highlights that the situation is not settled. Some advocate counselling, for example. However, it will take another couple of years before we can have data to indicate which approach is better or worse.

[geordief]

Does the problem lie with the expectations  and unkind judgements of society moreso than with the individual  who is presented with the choice of gender reassignment or not?

It feels rather  like the situation  of  "half-casts" who can find themselves not accepted into either one of the cultures they were born into.

 

Is it a weakness to give into the need for social approbation  or is it just a realism  so that we say we have to give ourselves the best chance in life if we are served with a "bad" hand of cards?

 

Can we pursue both outcomes on parallel  tracks and attempt to educate the public  why difference is good as also can be   "non determinacy" whilst allowing for escape ramps for those  who cannot wait for society to catch up with who they think they are?

 

I wonder how we will look back at this question in 50 or 100 years from now and if we can tell ourselves rhen that we have learned anything along the way.

[J.C.MacSwell]

20 hours ago, iNow said:

I understand where you’re coming from on this. In reality, if the kid decides they’re trans it seems like it happens closer to 8 or 9 and they’re going to passionately wish to avoid being forced to let puberty change their body in a manner which contradicts their mind… that ignores their self identity.

It’s not an easy situation, but it’s wrong of you and others IMO to assume parents are criminals who should be held accountable for accepting and supporting their kids early in receiving hormone blockers and/or supplements. 

“Not your kid. Not your problem. Leave your personal morality out of my house. You don’t get to dictate to me how to handle my offshoring. You raise your kids and I’ll raise mine.”

Doesn’t this perspective also resonate with you? Can you understand where parents of trans kids are coming from?

I'm not suggesting they need be held accountable to me. But if and when the child actually becomes old enough to make their own decisions, would you not agree they should have the right to sue anyone that participated in any interventions to the natural path their bodies were on, if those interventions proved to be adverse?

6 hours ago, zapatos said:

Yes. Stop taking them and puberty continues.

Is this claim from the same crowd that claimed testosterone alone should be sufficient (and recommended by some of that crowd) to allow trans women to compete fairly with other women?

(are you sure they are not letting politics and their emotions get in the way of the science?)

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

Let's follow the data a bit. There is a significant body of evidence showing that kids taking puberty blockers are at lower risk of suicide and other forms of self harm (see e.g. https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2019-1725 https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2013-2958 https://psycnet.apa.org/doi/10.1037/cpp0000288) and improved well-being.

 

From the abstract, let's follow the data a little bit more:

(13.73–19.04 years; M = 16.59, SD = 1.19) who received gender-affirming hormones were assessed at least 2 times: before the start of treatment and at least 3 months after treatment. Results: After gender-affirming hormones, a significant increase in levels of general well-being and a significant decrease in levels of suicidality were observed.

So that limited data had older children and youths participating and taking gender-affirming hormones. I see no mention of puberty blockers (which seems fairly late to be effective in that group)

I'm not against drug interventions when critically necessary, or for that matter older children or adults transitioning (despite claims by those against that the data shows no improvement), but I am against over prescribed medications (and OT drug use for sports performance enhancement or making arbitrary testosterone targets)

[iNow]

44 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

But if and when the child actually becomes old enough to make their own decisions, would you not agree they should have the right to sue anyone that participated in any interventions to the natural path their bodies were on, if those interventions proved to be adverse?

Your premise here seems a bit to suggest that some adult forced the decision on to their kid… forced them to seek and take treatment for reassignment… and while that’s surely possible, it’s also surely the exception rather than the rule.

But if the parents and relevant mental health practitioners sign off on a reassignment their offspring / their patient wants, then I struggle to see how you could reasonably expect to later sue the service people and medical teams who were involved in that and simply acting on the wishes of that family and medical team. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by iNow

[J.C.MacSwell]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

Your premise here seems a bit to suggest that some adult forced the decision on to their kid… forced them to seek and take treatment for reassignment… and while that’s surely possible, it’s also surely the exception rather than the rule.

My premise stems from holding "first, do no harm" or "primum non nocere,") as the default position over any questionable medical practices.In other words they should be damn sure they know what they are doing when doing something where lesser interventions are reasonable.

 

19 minutes ago, iNow said:

But if the parents and relevant mental health practitioners sign off on a reassignment their offspring / their patient wants, then I struggle to see how you could reasonably expect to later sue the service people and medical teams who were involved in that and simply acting on the wishes of that family and medical team. 

I agree. My statement did seem to suggest any participants involved should be culpable.

But the ones making the decisions need to be held accountable, to the degree they are involved in those decisions, or allowing those decisions. It can't all be put on the 8 and 9 year olds.