Transgender athletes

[swansont]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Citation regarding 'parents pushing' for a sex change against the wishes of the child?

He’s just re-upping his assertion from the thread I linked to above. Failed to provide a citation then. 

[mistermack]

4 hours ago, zapatos said:

Citation that psychologists often push for a sex change against the instincts of dubious parents?

I have actually linked these pages before : 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11921113/More-half-parents-trans-kids-say-pressured-transitioning-child.html     

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Gender_Identity_Development_Service    
 

4 hours ago, zapatos said:

Citation regarding 'parents pushing' for a sex change against the wishes of the child?

Citation where I said that please. 

 

 

 

[swansont]

13 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I have actually linked these pages before : 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11921113/More-half-parents-trans-kids-say-pressured-transitioning-child.html     

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Gender_Identity_Development_Service 

And I debunked the claims in the other thread. The “pressure” includes buying clothes. The number they cite is medical or social transition. They don’t, IIRC, give a number for sex change operations. The citations don’t support your claim. 

 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Citation where I said that please. 

 

9 hours ago, zapatos said:

Do you think there are many parents who push or indoctrinate children into a sex change that the children do not want? That would seem to be an extremely rare occurrence. 

 

8 hours ago, mistermack said:

It's not just parents who push. In fact, it's often psychologists etc pushing...

 

[MigL]

You guys are way too serious about this.

Here's B Mahar to inject some humor into the topic, and make some valid points about hormone blockers for kids, and the regional 'trendiness' of transgenderism.

He makes the point that discussion is warranted.

 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

I have actually linked these pages before : 

 

From the article you linked...

Quote

The responses came from parents of children who identified as trans... They were part of an online group called Parents of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria Kids. Rapid onset gender dysphoria is part of a controversial theory that the sharp rise in trans-identifying youths is a social contagion.

...Alejandra Caraballo, a prominent male-to-female transitioner and Harvard Law School instructor, dismissed the findings as 'surveys of anti-trans parents recruited from online anti-trans sites.'

I'm not sure your article supports your claim as much as you think it does.

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It's an accurate description of flawed thinking. More on the lines of belief that having equal outcomes can produce less poverty than equal opportunity.

But answer me this: Should the goal of handicapping transgender women through drug treatment to reduce their XY advantages be targeted to match those of average XX natural ability, or targeted to match those with the most natural abilities?

This whole argument can be summed up thusly; It's like Lewis Hamilton saying "It's not fair, Max Verstapen's got a girly shape!!! oh, and a better car"

I honestly don't understand the defence's argument, bc as far as I know none of the participants in this thread, are directly affected by anyone of uncertain sexual tendencies, so why such a strong bias against their participation in any sphere of society?

A question I think you should ask yourself @J.C.MacSwell.

Sport is an arbitory measure of a specific quality, and like Cruft's the tighter the measure, the more likely it's going to spit out an aboration of some sort (cough, incest ect.).

Open Cruft's to every dog and see the benefits for every dog.

19 hours ago, mistermack said:

I agree of course, but only up to a point. Children are a special kind of individual. What they want isn't always the best for them, and we do owe them protection, sometimes even from themselves. As in the case of anorexics and bulimics, or self-harmers etc. 

And children can get pushed and indoctrinated by an overbearing parent. So when they say "I want this", is it them speaking, or someone exerting influence ?

So, what you're saying is what Kellog espoused, wanking is bad for you, especially when you're fantasising about something I don't agree with... 😣

[MigL]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I honestly don't understand the defence's argument, bc as far as I know none of the participants in this thread, are directly affected by anyone of uncertain sexual tendencies, so why such a strong bias against their participation in any sphere of society?

You still haven't understood JC's main point; that allowing  Trans-women to compete against Cis-women is disadvantaging cis-women.
Again.
After they've been trying for hundreds of years to get the right to 'play' and earn a living at sports.

And you could be right; it doesn't directly affect the participants in this thread, but some of us are of the opinion that if we see an unfair situation where one group is getting hurt by policies enacted by another group, we speak up and attempt to do something about it.

Now you need to ask yourself
'Will you be hurting more people by letting Trans-women compete against Cis-women ( possibly the Earth's whole female population ), or will you just hurt a few ( INow mentioned 6 of them ) Trans-women by having a separate category for them ?'

Edited July 5, 2023 by MigL

[zapatos]

31 minutes ago, MigL said:

but some of us are of the opinion that if we see an unfair situation where one group is getting hurt by policies enacted by another group, we speak up and attempt to do something about it.

Actually I believe ALL of us are of the opinion that if we see an unfair situation where one group is getting hurt by policies enacted by another group, we speak up and attempt to do something about it. If you believe otherwise I think you still haven't understood us.

[MigL]

3 hours ago, zapatos said:

If you believe otherwise I think you still haven't understood us.

I did quote Dim, where he said if something doesn't affect you, it is not your concern.
So maybe, you should ask him for clarification, as I did.

And I will send a voucher for a 6-pack of Heineken to whoever answers the question of whether it is OK to set back women's sports after all the years of struggling to acheive recognition and equitable financing, so that a handful of trans-women can feel included ?

[StringJunky]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

I did quote Dim, where he said if something doesn't affect you, it is not your concern.
So maybe, you should ask him for clarification, as I did.

And I will send a voucher for a 6-pack of Heineken to whoever answers the question of whether it is OK to set back women's sports after all the years of struggling to acheive recognition and equitable financing, so that a handful of trans-women can feel included ?

C'est la vie. So, women, actually  want to be recognised as a distinct and separate ("separate but equal") class of person? Where did the cries for equality go? Social phenomena and behaviour is in constant flux, it's nobody's fault that these distinct causes happen at the same time.

[zapatos]

30 minutes ago, MigL said:

And I will send a voucher for a 6-pack of Heineken to whoever answers the question of whether it is OK to set back women's sports after all the years of struggling to acheive recognition and equitable financing, so that a handful of trans-women can feel included ?

The difference between you and me on this issue is that you have decided a handful of trans-women will "set back women's sports", while I think we don't have the science, data and experience to draw that conclusion.

21 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

C'est la vie. So, women, actually  want to be recognised as a distinct and separate ("separate but equal") class of person? Where did the cries for equality go? Social phenomena and behaviour is in constant flux, it's nobody's fault that these distinct causes happen at the same time.

At the hospital where my wife worked there was a big brouhaha going on between the doctors and nurses. The nurses were pushing hard to be allowed to perform tasks reserved for physicians and the physicians were none too keen to allow the nurses on their territory. About a year later the medical techs were pushing hard to be allowed to perform tasks reserved for nurses and the nurses were none too keen to allow the techs on their territory.

It's always the same. Everybody feels justified going after a bit of what others 'above' them have, but cannot believe the temerity of of those below them attempting the same behavior.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

The difference between you and me on this issue is that you have decided a handful of trans-women will "set back women's sports", while I think we don't have the science, data and experience to draw that conclusion.

At the hospital where my wife worked there was a big brouhaha going on between the doctors and nurses. The nurses were pushing hard to be allowed to perform tasks reserved for physicians and the physicians were none too keen to allow the nurses on their territory. About a year later the medical techs were pushing hard to be allowed to perform tasks reserved for nurses and the nurses were none too keen to allow the techs on their territory.

It's always the same. Everybody feels justified going after a bit of what others 'above' them have, but cannot believe the temerity of of those below them attempting the same behavior.

You could say that this is what you get societally when people are freer to express themselves... it often creates more categories. In my eyes, feminists are emerging as the new Luddites, in the face of things like transgenderism and recognition of variations in self-identity. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by StringJunky

[swansont]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

And I will send a voucher for a 6-pack of Heineken to whoever answers the question of whether it is OK to set back women's sports after all the years of struggling to acheive recognition and equitable financing, so that a handful of trans-women can feel included ?

How will this handful of participants “set back” women’s sports? We don’t need hypotheticals here - some sports organizations have permitted trans women to compete. Are they winning all the trophies? Are cis women not competing anymore?

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

How will this handful of participants “set back” women’s sports? We don’t need hypotheticals here - some sports organizations have permitted trans women to compete. Are they winning all the trophies? Are cis women not competing anymore?

Hypotheticals do need to be addressed.  

Setting rules takes more than just looking at the past and thinking that is the obvious limit as to what might be attempted.

Some organizations have allowed transwomen to compete,and many have regretted it and felt the need to put more restrictions on them, not because they feel some malice toward transgenders but to protect women's elite sports.

From the CBC link page 58:

World Athletics president Sebastian Coe told a news conference that the decision to exclude transgender women was based "on the overarching need to protect the female category."

 

Further, many of the transgender athletes have had to put up with considerable backlash that IMO should have been directed at those advocating for these experiments with their (temporary) inclusion. That backlash is quite possibly the biggest factor limiting them to this "handful". It's not the way to help transgenders IMO, individually or otherwise, to have them forefront in this threat to elite women's sports. 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Hypotheticals do need to be addressed.  

When you offer up hypotheticals in response to a request for evidence, it suggests there is no evidence.

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Setting rules takes more than just looking at the past and thinking that is the obvious limit as to what might be attempted.

Some organizations have allowed transwomen to compete,and many have regretted it and felt the need to put more restrictions on them, not because they feel some malice toward transgenders but to protect women's elite sports.

From the CBC link page 58:

World Athletics president Sebastian Coe told a news conference that the decision to exclude transgender women was based "on the overarching need to protect the female category."

Quoting someone saying largely the same thing else isn’t evidence. It’s not even a hypothetical.

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Further, many of the transgender athletes have had to put up with considerable backlash that IMO should have been directed at those advocating for these experiments with their (temporary) inclusion. That backlash is quite possibly the biggest factor limiting them to this "handful". It's not the way to help transgenders IMO, individually or otherwise, to have them forefront in this threat to elite women's sports. 

So this is to protect the transgender community? Couldn’t they just choose not to compete

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

 

So this is to protect the transgender community? Couldn’t they just choose not to compete

Yes. (Besides the paramount reason being to protect elite women's sport) All but what you consider to be a "handful" do just that, choose not to compete at elite levels, though there are many other reasons for it such as some realizing the testosterone targets are well out of healthy reach.

Do you think the East German coaches cared enough about the long term health of their athletes?  Or Charlie Francis about Ben Johnson? Rules against drug use for performance enhancement has been a major effort for sometime to protect clean athletes. Why encourage drug use for the purpose of qualifying?

[swansont]

11 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Yes. (Besides the paramount reason being to protect elite women's sport) All but what you consider to be a "handful" do just that, choose not to compete at elite levels, though there are many other reasons for it such as some realizing the testosterone targets are well out of healthy reach.

Any evidence of this hidden horde of trans athletes that choose not to compete at elite levels?

Until last year trans athletes in the US could compete in NCAA sports with no restrictions, AFAICT (testosterone testing was then implemented) Exactly one has won a championship, and that was last year. That’s the extent of college competition that could ascend to the elite level. That’s out of 32 trans athletes competing in college in the US. 15 in high school (2 girls)

 

11 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Do you think the East German coaches cared enough about the long term health of their athletes?  Or Charlie Francis about Ben Johnson? Rules against drug use for performance enhancement has been a major effort for sometime to protect clean athletes. Why encourage drug use for the purpose of qualifying?

What does this have to do with trans athletes? i.e. people who are not using performance-enhancing drugs?

[mistermack]

On 7/4/2023 at 9:37 PM, zapatos said:

Citation regarding 'parents pushing' for a sex change against the wishes of the child?

That wasn't what i said, was it? 

I find it's easy to quote people honestly and accurately, by copying and pasting what they said. 

[dimreepr]

On 7/5/2023 at 2:39 PM, MigL said:

You still haven't understood JC's main point; that allowing  Trans-women to compete against Cis-women is disadvantaging cis-women.
Again.
After they've been trying for hundreds of years to get the right to 'play' and earn a living at sports.

And you could be right; it doesn't directly affect the participants in this thread, but some of us are of the opinion that if we see an unfair situation where one group is getting hurt by policies enacted by another group, we speak up and attempt to do something about it.

And you haven't understood my main point; sports have rules and those rules are set by the governing body. Rules change all the time, so why not let them play?

On 7/5/2023 at 2:39 PM, MigL said:

Now you need to ask yourself
'Will you be hurting more people by letting Trans-women compete against Cis-women ( possibly the Earth's whole female population ), or will you just hurt a few ( INow mentioned 6 of them ) Trans-women by having a separate category for them ?'

How does their inclusion hurt anyone?

Just frame the rules accordingly, sometimes 'they' might win at some game, so what? Coming second only hurts ones feeling's; or are you suggesting that the women are so fragile that we 'men' need to protect them from a butch female?

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

That wasn't what i said, was it? 

I find it's easy to quote people honestly and accurately, by copying and pasting what they said. 

Can you clarify what is meant by what you said?

Edited July 6, 2023 by dimreepr

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

And you haven't understood my main point; sports have rules and those rules are set by the governing body. Rules change all the time, so why not let them play?

Nobody is stopping them. They are free to play against their own sex. It's this fiction that a pill here and a snip there turns a man into a woman that's the problem. Men identifying as women are not forbidden from competing against other men, as far as I'm aware. But they shouldn't be allowed in a women's contest, and that goes for all men. 

[StringJunky]

16 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Nobody is stopping them. They are free to play against their own sex. It's this fiction that a pill here and a snip there turns a man into a woman that's the problem. Men identifying as women are not forbidden from competing against other men, as far as I'm aware. But they shouldn't be allowed in a women's contest, and that goes for all men. 

You are farting into the wind. Male and female as the only descriptors is loaded onto the dustbin of history.

It's amusing, human development. We start out with black and white views as youngsters, and eventually we develop  an understanding of nuances in things... grey things. Then we hit our seventh decade, or thereabouts, and the world is black and white again! I think people just give up the desire to learn and end up entrenched with an attitude twenty years out of date. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It's amusing, human development. We start out with black and white views as youngsters, and eventually we develop  an understanding of nuances in things... grey things. Then we hit our seventh decade, or thereabouts, and the world is black and white again! I think people just give up the desire to learn and end up entrenched with an attitude twenty years out of date. 

So personal attacks are allowed these days ? They never were in my day. 😄

[StringJunky]

32 minutes ago, mistermack said:

So personal attacks are allowed these days ? They never were in my day. 😄

That was a general statement about human nature, inspired by your posts. I'm not immune, I might add, although I try to keep self-aware about it. Not a chance of changing my music tastes now, for example. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

18 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

That was a general statement about human nature,

It was, my arse.

 

20 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Not a chance of changing my music tastes now, for example. 

And yet, pop a few pills and chop off a few bits, and you too can become a woman. Apparently. 

They don't seem to be having many babies though. 

On the other hand, I wholeheartedly agree that sexual inclination is a grey area. Who could argue otherwise when you can read all about it in ancient greek literature? And good luck and a happy life to every single one.  I have a good friend who transitioned, and I'm more than happy to go along with it, when he chooses to present as a woman. But I wouldn't want him competing with women. I've heard about him fighting in the past, and the damage he could do to bigger guys.