Transgender athletes

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

I am pretty sure that if you have bag with 1000 skittles and just one is deadly, you would just assume that the whole bag is safe, too. I mean, it is just nitpicking.

If there were 500 red ones, and 499 green ones, with one yellow, I wouldn't call it a rainbow selection. 

[iNow]

It doesn’t matter what you call it. Call it Loretta for all I care. Nobody gives a shit about calling it a rainbow, apparently except you. 

This is about accepting trans people, into sports and also into our society more broadly. 

You’re offering further evidence about why this is harder than it needs to be. 

[Intoscience]

23 hours ago, dimreepr said:

And, I agree.

Let me get this straight, you want us to define what a woman is, but without the necessary language to do so; hmmm, tricky... 🤔

what exactly is it that you know to be true?

If it's what I think it is, that men are naturally stronger than women; then answer me this, can you lift more than a female (by your definition) olympic weightlifter?

Nope, I never stated anything other than by definition that is the generally accepted by the mainstream. use what ever language you prefer so long as it makes sense and that the correct use of the words are used, not made up definitions that suits. 

I know that in general (we are talking in general i.e the vast majority) a woman is distinctively biologically different from a man. Or if you prefer we will use the terms female & male since the term woman seems to be undefined. Those differences become more profound as each goes through puberty. 

Yes, studies have shown that in general (vast majority) males tend to be around 10%-30% stronger, faster and more physically powerful than females. Sure you have the extremes of the spectrum where a powerlifting female can be stronger than the average male. But that is not really a good comparison now is it? Though you can watch many videos of average males who do weights for their health and fitness but non competitive out lifting top ranked professional female powerlifters. 

My argument is and always has been that a transgender female who has athletic ability pitched against a cis female with similar weight and skill will in general over power the cis female. Take this to the extremes where you have an elite trans female competing against elite cis females the trans will dominate.   

18 hours ago, iNow said:

My position throughout has been that it's entirely possible to design and implement sports division qualification thresholds and guidelines which allow for transgender inclusion.

This position remains entirely valid despite my stipulation that I personally lack sufficient expertise to design those  aforementioned guidelines personally myself. 

On 7/25/2023 at 7:58 AM, Intoscience said:

It's also logical that if a any person identifying as they choose and are free with no restriction, then all restrictions are irrelevant.  

As best I can tell, you're the only one here discussing "no restrictions." I'm saying the restrictions can be amended to allow for transgender inclusion in sports, not that zero restrictions should be used. Does this help us to better align on our views

We are far more aligned then than I realised.  It appears on this thread that some posters are assuming I want to ban transgender from sports. This is and never as been the case. I have stated many times that I would like to see sports and society in general adopting equality & fair inclusiveness for all people. 

+1 (my bold your statement above) I would just change it slightly to that and say "thresholds & guidelines which allow fair competitive inclusion for all" 

18 hours ago, iNow said:

Should not the onus of this task fall to those seeking to prevent transgender competitors from participating due to "not meeting their personal misguided, outdated, remedial 6th grade biology definition of female? "

Why?

I always thought the onus for evidence and definition was on the person making a claim? 

A person born biologically male who proclaims they are a female and have been mis-gendered and thus want to be identified as a woman.

I'm happy to acknowledge and respect their preferred identity, absolutely fine. I would just like to know if they are identifying as a woman then what definition are they using so I can understand their position. Since my definition of a woman may not align with theirs. But I may be told I'm incorrect, and my definition is outdated, I'm biased, yet I'm also told that the definition can be personal to me and others should accept and respect this.

I find it all rather illogical and somewhat damaging to the use of words and their meanings.   

Edited July 26, 2023 by Intoscience
spelling

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Yes, studies have shown that in general (vast majority) males tend to be around 10%-30% stronger, faster and more physically powerful than females. Sure you have the extremes of the spectrum where a powerlifting female can be stronger than the average male. But that is not really a good comparison now is it? Though you can watch many videos of average males who do weights for their health and fitness but non competitive out lifting top ranked professional female powerlifters. 

Since we’re talking about transgender athletes, no, it’s probably not a good comparison.

3 hours ago, Intoscience said:

My argument is and always has been that a transgender female who has athletic ability pitched against a cis female with similar weight and skill will in general over power the cis female. Take this to the extremes where you have an elite trans female competing against elite cis females the trans will dominate. 

And the response is: where is your evidence that this is the case?

Comparisons of cis males and cis females aren’t germane. We need to compare the biology of trans women with cis women. Beyond the question of what chromosomes they have.

If trans women will dominate these competitions, given that they have been competing for some time in various places, where are they? We should be flooded with trans women winning competitions if this thesis is true.

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

My argument is and always has been that a transgender female who has athletic ability pitched against a cis female with similar weight and skill will in general over power the cis female. Take this to the extremes where you have an elite trans female competing against elite cis females the trans will dominate. 

Not every game is won by strength alone, besides you can't know that before they play the game; and no, your suspicions doesn't count as fact, even if it seems so obvious; that's not the scientific MO 'Intoscience'.

It's quite telling that the defence has yet to answer the very simple question, why do you object to them playing with someone who doesn't object to being played with?

More commonly know as consent in the world of sex... 😉

11 hours ago, mistermack said:

If there were 500 red ones, and 499 green ones, with one yellow, I wouldn't call it a rainbow selection. 

WTF has this got to do with transgander athlete's?

I bet your an old fashioned man's man, because you too are drowning in the plughole of excuses...

You don't have to accept that the spectrum exists, you may not understand I accept that, but you must see that it's red, green and blue that colour's the world??? 

Sorry, if you're blind that's in bad taste... 🧐

Edited July 26, 2023 by dimreepr

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I bet your an old fashioned man's man, because you too are drowning in the plughole of excuses...

!

Moderator Note

You've stepped over a line and this is now a personal attack. It needs to stop. 

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

If trans women will dominate these competitions, given that they have been competing for some time in various places, where are they? We should be flooded with trans women winning competitions if this thesis is true.

Can you provide of an example of a trans female competing at elite level without handicapping her, through arbitrary testosterone reduction targets?

The ones unwilling or unable to comply with the targets have essentially been banned/excluded.

Let's not pretend they've been given a chance to perform at their best.

Here is an article from over a year ago arguing that Lia Thompson was not at an advantage because  her hormone therapy treatments removed the advantage. (though NCAA allows twice the testosterone level of US swimming, which allows twice the normal female range)

Apologies for the print size. I don't seem to be able to reduce it after cutting and pasting.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html

"Ms Hogshead-Makar also drew attention to the difference between Ms Thomas's pre-HRT times and her times today. Her best time in the 500 yards was 5.6 per cent slower than before transition, while her 1,000 yards time was 7.5 per cent slower and her 1,650 yards time was 7.2 per cent slower.

That is less than the 10 to 11 per cent gap Ms Hogshead-Makar says is usually found between men's and women's races. However, according to the LGBT sports news site OutSport, the difference in NCAA men and women's records varies by distance: 11.2 per cent for the 200 yards, 7.2 per cent for the 500 yards, and 6 per cent for the 1,650 yards.

It is also possible that Ms Thomas' old times do not represent how fast she'd swim if she had never begun HRT. They date from an earlier point in her evolution as a swimmer, and therefore would not reflect any improvements in her technique or mindset since then."

So despite all her training and maturing, her times are significantly slower (thus arguing for inclusion)

Obviously there is no evidence that her times would be even slower if she was forced to half her testosterone from the current NCAA target, or half it again to get to what is required now fior some sports...but one can make a much easier argument that it would than one that it wouldn't.

You would have to argue against some of the arguments commonly made for inclusion to continue to deny that Trans females have advantages over cis-gendered females.

On 7/25/2023 at 10:24 AM, iNow said:

My position throughout has been that it's entirely possible to design and implement sports division qualification thresholds and guidelines which allow for transgender inclusion.

This position remains entirely valid despite my stipulation that I personally lack sufficient expertise to design those  aforementioned guidelines personally myself. 

 

Unfortunately when it comes to the necessary expertise...currently the other 8 billion of us lack it as well.

...and there's nothing remotely indicating that will ever.change 

[J.C.MacSwell]

(forcing/incentivizing drug treatments beyond those their health providers would recommend for those wishing inclusion...notwithstanding)

[swansont]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Can you provide of an example of a trans female competing at elite level without handicapping her, through arbitrary testosterone reduction targets?

Are the targets arbitrary? My understanding is that many transgender women undergo hormone replacement therapy

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/feminizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096

The NCAA policy in 2011 makes no mention of target levels, only that the athlete needs to be undergoing HRT

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/inclusion/lgbtq/INC_TransgenderHandbook.pdf

[J.C.MacSwell]

25 minutes ago, swansont said:

Are the targets arbitrary? My understanding is that many transgender women undergo hormone replacement therapy

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/feminizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096

The NCAA policy in 2011 makes no mention of target levels, only that the athlete needs to be undergoing HRT

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/inclusion/lgbtq/INC_TransgenderHandbook.pdf

Yes. The targets are arbitrary. They are set as a compromise between health and "competitive fairness" but despite the health concerns the targets are generally becoming more onerous (thus the difference between current and 2011 for NCAA swimming). The IOC guidelines suggest, but don't mandate, that they should not be used at all but leave it to each sports body to decide how to regulate their respective sports.

 

 

If they are already below the targets after transitional therapy, they can, depending on the sport compete but that seems rather rare, and IMO they would have already been handicapped enough, or more than enough to be uncompetitive. But most struggle to reach and maintain target levels.

The targets are a contentious issue as IIRC was discussed in your link on Semenya.

(I know she is intersex not transgender but the principles are the same)

[swansont]

It appears that US high-school sports do not have any such requirements. 

Canadian sports, too

https://usports.ca/uploads/hq/Media_Releases/Members_Info/2018-19/Press_Release_-_Transgender_Policy.pdf

 

[CharonY]

56 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If they are already below the targets after transitional therapy, they can, depending on the sport compete but that seems rather rare, and IMO they would have already been handicapped enough, or more than enough to be uncompetitive. But most struggle to reach and maintain target levels.

All levels are to some degree arbitrary. At best standards represent the bulk but not every individual, which is where the discussion really has shifted to. I.e. in the past the assumption if we got most of folks squared away that is good enough, the rest has to fall by the sidelines. Now the question has become how can we be more inclusive (which IMO is a real generational change in attitude). That being said, initial testosterone limits were in part based on some screening studies which showed gaps in testosterone levels (and excluding at least one study, it seems, which showed overlap). The secondary fight is then the role of testosterone in performance. The latter is going to turn into a very sport-specific discussion eventually (as noted,  testosterones levels varied quite a bit by top athletes in different sports and some found negative correlations, e.g. in cyclists and female weightlifters) .

By the way, do you have an article (perhaps I have missed it) suggesting that trans-athletes have troubles hitting the guideline thresholds? What I have read seemed to suggest that levels are "typically" reached after two years of transitioning. I am curious to see whether there is more info out there.

[StringJunky]

51 minutes ago, CharonY said:

 That being said, initial testosterone limits were in part based on some screening studies which showed gaps in testosterone levels (and excluding at least one study, it seems, which showed overlap).

Like the study on testosterone levels after an event:

Quote

 16·5% of men had low testosterone levels, whereas 13·7% of women had high levels with complete overlap between the sexes.

Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

35 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Like the study on testosterone levels after an event:

 

Yes I was referring to that study earlier, too (I only posted a DOI of it). There are other surveys, though often from non elite athletes, and one exclusively from runners, which showed more separation. It is a bit messy overall.

I would like also to highlight your earlier point that sex verification has been an issue for female athletes for a rather long time, often to their detriment. Likewise, the scientific validity has been questions for basically as long, if one looks at the literature on that topic. Potentially the ideological shift of the broader population towards inclusion, rather than exclusion to resolve these issues, will fuel more research on that matter to create better evidence-based guidelines.

[iNow]

I said: 

“My position throughout has been that it's entirely possible to design and implement sports division qualification thresholds and guidelines which allow for transgender inclusion.

This position remains entirely valid despite my stipulation that I personally lack sufficient expertise to design those aforementioned guidelines personally myself.”

THEN JCM said:

9 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Unfortunately when it comes to the necessary expertise...currently the other 8 billion of us lack it as well.

 

There’s just no way you can think this is possibly true… 

“Welp… I can’t figure this out, nor can iNow… that obviously means not a single human can nor ever will.” 

Seriously?!?

16 hours ago, Intoscience said:

We are far more aligned then than I realised. 

Absolutely. Most of us are, especially if we allow ourselves to get passed the nonsense and tribalism and trolls and focus instead on where we’re allies. ✌🏼

[J.C.MacSwell]

47 minutes ago, iNow said:

I said: 

“My position throughout has been that it's entirely possible to design and implement sports division qualification thresholds and guidelines which allow for transgender inclusion.

This position remains entirely valid despite my stipulation that I personally lack sufficient expertise to design those aforementioned guidelines personally myself.”

THEN JCM said:

There’s just no way you can think this is possibly true… 

“Welp… I can’t figure this out, nor can iNow… that obviously means not a single human can nor ever will.” 

 

The IOC (International Olympic Committee) guidelines say "don't use testosterone targets to figure this out...but do what you have to do...figure it out!" 

World Athletics decides "We need to exclude transgenders that have gone untreated through puberty, and use very onerous testosterone targets for the rest plus same for the intersex (event dependant)".

What does that tell you?

And why the need to misrepresent my claim as "not a single human can nor ever will.” 

Even though I suspect that may be true...I didn't say that!

 

If you think my claim is so preposterous why don't you let it stand as it is?

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

What does that tell you?

That politics and emotions often get in the way of us hearing and successfully implementing intelligent ideas. 

It tells me that too often humans sacrifice the good in pursuit of the perfect… The demand of perfection becomes the enemy of progress and the status quo continues to thicken. 

5 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

And why the need to misrepresent my claim as "not a single human can nor ever will.” 

10 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

...and there's nothing remotely indicating that will ever.change 

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

That politics and emotions often get in the way of us hearing and successfully implementing intelligent ideas. 

It tells me that too often humans sacrifice the good in pursuit of the perfect… The demand of perfection becomes the enemy of progress and the status quo continues to thicken. 

What are these ideas? 

[iNow]

I’m sure there are meeting minutes and emails and follow ups from those Olympic committees you cited above. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

I’m sure there are meeting minutes and emails and follow ups from those Olympic committees you cited above. 

The ones that saw no way forward that included competitive fairness, athlete health safety, and inclusion?

Or do you think there was some conspiracy to suppress ideas that included all three?

[iNow]

6 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The ones that saw no way forward that included competitive fairness, athlete health safety, and inclusion?

No. The ones which with high probability listed then after that voted against those ideas (or had one senior leader veto them)… Ideas for thresholds to inclusion were SURY introduced by members of those panels… members far more expert than myself on which metrics make sense for the various different sports and performance categories. 

This is my speculation. It seems likely. It seems VERY likely. No, I cannot provide a citation. It’s a conjecture. A hypothesis. An informed suggestion based on how humans making rules for large revenue generating organizations tend to behave. 

Just bc they didn’t agree on metrics for inclusion in the final language of that one publication doesn’t mean that high quality ideas for inclusive metrics weren’t shared nor advocated for during the lead up to that press release. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by iNow

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

No. The ones which with high probability listed then after that voted against those ideas (or had one senior leader veto them)… Ideas for thresholds to inclusion were SURY introduced by members of those panels… members far more expert than myself on which metrics make sense for the various different sports and performance categories. 

This is my speculation. It seems likely. It seems VERY likely. No, I cannot provide a citation. It’s a conjecture. A hypothesis. An informed suggestion based on how humans making rules for large revenue generating organizations tend to behave. 

Just bc they didn’t agree on metrics for inclusion in the final language of that one publication doesn’t mean that high quality ideas for inclusive metrics weren’t shared nor advocated for during the lead up to that press release. 

So...

 

9 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Or do you think there was some conspiracy to suppress ideas that included all three?

 

[iNow]

I’ve suggested no conspiracy . 

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

I’ve suggested no conspiracy . 

There are many advocates for inclusion of transgenders in elite female sports that claim expertise.

Can you not cite any of their ideas that even claim to provide all three?

With current best practices:

Athlete health safety, competitive fairness, and inclusion.

Pick two at most, or seriously compromise at least one.

[iNow]

51 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Can you not cite any of their ideas

Of course I could if I dug around for them, but as this is just a discussion forum unlikely to change the parts of the world I’d like to see changed, I see the ROI of such an effort as nearly zero and consequently also have zero plans right now to use my time doing so. 

Cato took a swing at it last fall though: https://www.cato.org/regulation/fall-2022/transgender-athletes-fair-competition-public-policy#analyzing-performance-factors