Transgender athletes

[StringJunky]

  On 8/1/2023 at 6:59 AM, Intoscience said:

 Ironically generally any form of dysmorphia or phobia is considered a mental issue. However, gender dysmorphia seems to be the exception to the rule. 

 

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So was homosexuality. Look where that is now. Any diagnostic manual on mental health can actually just reflect contemporary attitudes of the day and may simply be   socially unacceptable, rather than genuinely pathological to the individual or people around them..

[dimreepr]

  On 8/1/2023 at 6:59 AM, Intoscience said:

The binary system is considered archaic, yet trans women are desperately seeking acceptance as women rather than men. So if there is no distinction between male & female then why are they identifying as women? If there is no male or female just a spectrum then why have any label at all why seek confirmation?  

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It's never been a binary question, even if we take the obvious, sex for reproduction, there's 4 group's: 1, men that can, 2, women that can, 3, men that can't, 4, women that can't, 6 if we include those that choose not to partake, 8 if we include those that can't attract a mate. And that's a question of life and death, and we're only talking about a game FFS.

  On 8/1/2023 at 6:59 AM, Intoscience said:

Why are you getting irate? All I asked was what the definition of what a male & female are. 

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For me, it's because you've already dismissed the language to describe it out of hand; for instance, a large part of what it is to be male/female is subjective, so you know what it feels like to be a man because you are one, so in your imagination what it feels like to be a woman is simply the opposite of that. 

IOW You lack the understanding, because you've dismissed the language needed as bullshit. 😉

Edited August 1, 2023 by dimreepr

[iNow]

  On 8/1/2023 at 6:59 AM, Intoscience said:

How they choose to identify is irrelevant to how they were born

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How old were you when you chose to identify as male?

They're actually choosing to share with the world who they are and how the doctor made a mistake at birth by using too simplistic categories. 
 

  On 8/1/2023 at 6:59 AM, Intoscience said:

The binary system is considered archaic, yet trans women are desperately seeking acceptance as women rather than men.

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Amazingly, both things can be true at once in parallel. They’re seeking acceptance is the obvious priority here.

  On 8/1/2023 at 4:48 AM, mistermack said:

using the Napoleon example, If I say to you, I identify as Napoleon and I'm happy living my life that way, I'm not necessarily deluded. But if I believe I AM Napoleon, then that's deluded.

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The comparison which actually applies here is the doctor assigned you as Napoleon at birth and you’re simply explaining to the world, “hey guys… sorry to have waste your time clarifying, but I’m not actually napoleon no matter how forcibly you suggest otherwise.”

[mistermack]

  On 8/1/2023 at 12:46 PM, iNow said:

The comparison which actually applies here is the doctor assigned you as Napoleon at birth and you’re simply explaining to the world, “hey guys… sorry to have waste your time clarifying, but I’m not actually napoleon no matter how forcibly you suggest otherwise.”

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No, that's just plain silly. In the case of a typical transgender, Lia Thomas for example, the doctor got it exactly right, they identified him as a male baby. 

If a doctor identified a baby as Napoleon, he would have obviously got it wrong, and would be gently led away and got some help. As would the Lia Thomas doctor, if he proclaimed a clearly male baby, with penis and balls, to be a girl.

You're showing signs of desperation, pretty much arguing that black is white.

[TheVat]

Just looking in.  So folks are still conflating physical and psychological gender?  Crikey, you will circle for eternity.

  On 8/1/2023 at 8:54 AM, StringJunky said:

So was homosexuality. Look where that is now. Any diagnostic manual on mental health can actually just reflect contemporary attitudes of the day and may simply be   socially unacceptable, rather than genuinely pathological to the individual or people around them..

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Plus one.  Can't be said too many times that the field of psychiatry is often ruled by social fads.  Women and "tilted wombs."  

[zapatos]

  On 8/1/2023 at 6:59 AM, Intoscience said:

How they choose to identify is irrelevant to how they were born.

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Gender identity is there at birth. Just like your foot and heart are there at birth. You may as well be saying that whether or not they have a head is irrelevant to how they were born.

  On 8/1/2023 at 1:16 PM, mistermack said:

No, that's just plain silly. In the case of a typical transgender, Lia Thomas for example, the doctor got it exactly right, they identified him as a male baby. 

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No, the doctor got it half right. Lia did have a pecker but the doctor was unable to tell us about Lia's gender.

  On 8/1/2023 at 6:59 AM, Intoscience said:

All I've heard so far is basically - sod the females, they should stop complaining and just let the blokes who are now considered women to play to. 

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Bullshit.

[J.C.MacSwell]

  On 8/1/2023 at 1:25 PM, TheVat said:

Just looking in.  So folks are still conflating physical and psychological gender?  Crikey, you will circle for eternity.

 

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Physical gender is a term only meaningful using the old definition of gender.

Get with the times!

[StringJunky]

  On 8/1/2023 at 1:47 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

Physical gender is a term only meaningful using the old definition of gender.

Get with the times!

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One should always be working in the same 'units' to avoid screwing up.  

[iNow]

  On 8/1/2023 at 1:16 PM, mistermack said:

You're showing signs of desperation

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You misspelled empathy

[iNow]

I also btw empathize with elite female athletes, just find the nature of the risk they face here to be several orders of magnitude smaller, less consequential, and less violent than the risks faced daily by the trans community.  

[StringJunky]

  On 8/1/2023 at 5:53 PM, iNow said:

I also btw empathize with elite female athletes, just find the nature of the risk they face here to be several orders of magnitude smaller, less consequential, and less violent than the risks faced daily by the trans community.  

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I do think Lia Thomas was being unrealistic, particularly when this subject is very much in flux in elite sports.. They transferred  a clear advantage in their physical size when they transitioned. Transitioning doesn't reduce the stroke length that men that tall have.

[Phi for All]

  On 8/1/2023 at 6:08 PM, StringJunky said:

Transitioning doesn't reduce the stroke length that men that tall have.

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Which helps more with surface swimming. Shorter swimmers do better when they need to be underwater. And there are some very tall female swimmers:

https://swimswam.com/the-tallest-female-olympic-swimming-medalists/

  Quote

Claudia Poll was part of the tallest podium ever seen in Olympic swimming history on the women’s side. In the women’s 200 freestyle at the 1996 Olympics, the medalists were Poll (1.90 m), German Franziska van Almsick (1.81 m), and German Dagmar Hase (1.83 m). They combined for an average height of 1.85 m.

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Edit to add: Lia Thomas got beaten last year by a shorter swimmer transitioning to male, Iszac Henig. Henig hasn't started taking testosterone treatments and so is allowed to compete on the women's team. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Phi for All
added info

[StringJunky]

  On 8/1/2023 at 6:30 PM, Phi for All said:

Which helps more with surface swimming. Shorter swimmers do better when they need to be underwater. And there are some very tall female swimmers:

https://swimswam.com/the-tallest-female-olympic-swimming-medalists/

 

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Right. It turns one of the Canadian players in the women's World Cup is a trans, declaring as non-binary; Quinn. Not much fuss there. Watching some of the games, it did strike me that some of the women are quite androgynous, so Quinn doesn't stand out so much to elicit the negative comments trans receive in other sports.

Edited August 1, 2023 by StringJunky

[pears]

  On 8/1/2023 at 1:32 PM, zapatos said:

Gender identity is there at birth. Just like your foot and heart are there at birth. You may as well be saying that whether or not they have a head is irrelevant to how they were born.

No, the doctor got it half right. Lia did have a pecker but the doctor was unable to tell us about Lia's gender.

Bullshit.

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How do you know gender identity is there at birth?

[zapatos]

  On 8/1/2023 at 7:30 PM, pears said:

How do you know gender identity is there at birth?

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When did you choose your gender? Could you change it on demand?

Edited August 1, 2023 by zapatos

[CharonY]

  On 8/1/2023 at 7:45 PM, zapatos said:

When did you choose your gender?

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I think in order to avoid centering the discussion on a possible strawman I suggest to make things a bit more precise. We do not know exactly when or how gender identify is fully formed. Based on what we know the rough idea is that:

1) it is not a conscious decision

2) but while there seems to be a genetic component to it, it does not mean that it is immutable assigned at birth, rather 

3) it likely has some sort of developmental aspect, though we do not know when it happens or what precisely contributes to it. However, most children develop a relative firm sense of their gender identity before puberty.

[pears]

  On 8/1/2023 at 7:45 PM, zapatos said:

When did you choose your gender? Could you change it on demand?

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You mean gender identity? I don't believe in gender identity. I haven't seen any good definition of it or any empirical evidence for it. The word gender on its own used to be a polite term for sex category.

[zapatos]

  On 8/1/2023 at 7:56 PM, pears said:

I don't believe in gender identity.

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Cool. I can't say I've met many people who don't have a personal sense of their own gender.

[pears]

  On 8/1/2023 at 7:48 PM, CharonY said:

I think in order to avoid centering the discussion on a possible strawman I suggest to make things a bit more precise. We do not know exactly when or how gender identify is fully formed. Based on what we know the rough idea is that:

1) it is not a conscious decision

2) but while there seems to be a genetic component to it, it does not mean that it is immutable assigned at birth, rather 

3) it likely has some sort of developmental aspect, though we do not know when it happens or what precisely contributes to it. However, most children develop a relative firm sense of their gender identity before puberty (i.e. before they express sexual preferences).

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What do you mean by there seems to be a genetic component to gender identity? Have the genes for it been identified? What are they?

  On 8/1/2023 at 8:02 PM, zapatos said:

Cool. I can't say I've met many people who don't have a personal sense of their own gender.

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What do you mean by gender? Do you mean sex characteristics?

[Phi for All]

  On 8/1/2023 at 7:48 PM, CharonY said:

1) it is not a conscious decision

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This by itself tells us gender identity is at least partially there at a very early age. I've never heard of a cisgender person who remembers making such a decision. It's always transgenders who have to correct the perceptions of others or conform unnaturally.

 

  On 8/1/2023 at 7:48 PM, CharonY said:

2) but while there seems to be a genetic component to it, it does not mean that it is immutable assigned at birth, rather 

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Immutable? I have no idea, but I do think the evidence points to very early development, possibly misunderstood because the child still has to learn why society is wrong about them.

 

  On 8/1/2023 at 7:48 PM, CharonY said:

3) it likely has some sort of developmental aspect, though we do not know when it happens or what precisely contributes to it.

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I highly doubt any developmental aspect is going to be as specious as some trans opponents make them out to be. I get the feeling many think most transgenders are making a decision based on what advantages it gives them. 

 

  On 8/1/2023 at 7:56 PM, pears said:

You mean gender identity? I don't believe in gender identity. I haven't seen any good definition of it or any empirical evidence for it. The word gender on its own used to be a polite term for sex category.

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The latest professional terminology isn't something you get to "believe in", any more than you can say you don't "believe in" the autism spectrum. These are the terms being used professionally right now, so if you want to stay stuck in the mud, please keep denying what others are feeling and telling us about. The word gender has grown up, taken on detailed meaning, as so many other scientific concepts do.

[CharonY]

  On 8/1/2023 at 8:05 PM, Phi for All said:

This by itself tells us gender identity is at least partially there at a very early age. I've never heard of a cisgender person who remembers making such a decision. It's always transgenders who have to correct the perceptions of others or conform unnaturally.

 

Immutable? I have no idea, but I do think the evidence points to very early development, possibly misunderstood because the child still has to learn why society is wrong about them.

 

I highly doubt any developmental aspect is going to be as specious as some trans opponents make them out to be. I get the feeling many think most transgenders are making a decision based on what advantages it gives them. 

 

The latest professional terminology isn't something you get to "believe in", any more than you can say you don't "believe in" the autism spectrum. These are the terms being used professionally right now, so if you want to stay stuck in the mud, please keep denying what others are feeling and telling us about.

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I think that goes to the point that folks misunderstand what development means in a biological context. Just because you have XX or XY it does not mean that your developmental path is set. It depends on things like nutrition, the level of hormones you produce, stress and so on, which can subtly but significantly alter your path. But once set, it often stays that way throughout life (and remember, depending perspective, development does not end with adulthood).

For many folks this is the same as genetic or at birth, but if we look at the fine details, it really isn't. It seems like a semantic difference, but is in fact a mechanistic one. Fundamentally it does not make a huge difference, as our ability to predict or even manipulate those outcomes is very limited (mostly through a good diet, I suppose).

  On 8/1/2023 at 8:03 PM, pears said:

What do you mean by there seems to be a genetic component to gender identity? Have the genes for it been identified? What are they?

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Well, there are many components, obviously. Many are likely coupled to the system that affect sexual development. Obviously, there is a mechanism which results most XY folks feel like men and XX like women (I am using karyotype here for simplicity, though in an earlier link by JCM, it was pointed out that general biological definitions differ from that). 

Likewise, genetic studies have shown that in folks where gender and sex does not line up, there are rare mutations especially in estrogen receptors. I.e. one might speculate that in those, brain development in response to certain hormones might be different. Other indicators of genetic components were gained from twin and sibling studies. 

[pears]

  On 8/1/2023 at 8:05 PM, Phi for All said:

The latest professional terminology isn't something you get to "believe in", any more than you can say you don't "believe in" the autism spectrum. These are the terms being used professionally right now, so if you want to stay stuck in the mud, please keep denying what others are feeling and telling us about. The word gender has grown up, taken on detailed meaning, as so many other scientific concepts d

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Autistic traits are pretty clearly defined and testable. What is the definition of gender or gender identity? How do I know whether I am cis or trans. What are the specific tests?

Edited August 1, 2023 by pears

[iNow]

//"The strategy of willful ignorance is not to fight theory with theory and statistic with statistic. It is instead to say, "I refuse to believe this," and then filibuster in the court of public opinion. It is not crackpot theories that are doing us in. It is the spread of the tactics of those who disrespect truth."//

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Attack-on-Truth/230631/

[CharonY]

  On 8/1/2023 at 8:15 PM, pears said:

Autistic traits are pretty clearly defined and testable. What is the definition of gender or gender identity? How do I know whether I am cis or trans. What are the specific tests?

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Have you ever wondered whether you are male or female?

[pears]

  On 8/1/2023 at 8:19 PM, CharonY said:

Have you ever wondered whether you are male or female?

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I assume I am my sexed body. A question like that could determine whether one feels at odds with their sexed body. But does a feeling of distress at ones sexed body mean that an innate gender identity is a tangible thing?

Zapatos stated that gender identity is a fixed immutable tangible thing like a physical body part.