Transgender athletes

[zapatos]

10 minutes ago, pears said:

What is the definition of ... gender identity?

Why do you care if you don't believe in it? We could say anything at all and it wouldn't make any difference to you. 

4 minutes ago, pears said:

Zapatos stated that gender identity is a fixed immutable tangible thing like a physical body part.

Close, but no cigar.

[pears]

How you answer that question also depends on your prior beliefs. If you believe the terms male and female are defined by your sex characteristics then you would answer no because you can see what sex you are.

I can understand gender/sex dysphoria as a concept but not innate gender identity. It sounds like pseudoscience to me because I don't see how it can be tested for.

6 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Why do you care if you don't believe in it? We could say anything at all and it wouldn't make any difference to you. 

Close, but no cigar.

Because this is a science forum so there must be a good basis for such an idea. If I rocked up and stated I have a soul because I feel like I have one I'd be torn to shreds.

Change my mind. With scientific evidence.

3 minutes ago, pears said:

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by pears

[Phi for All]

20 minutes ago, pears said:

Autistic traits are pretty clearly defined and testable. What is the definition of gender or gender identity?

"Identity" implies that the individual "identifies" as a particular gender. It's not unlike homosexuality. Who tests you for homosexuality? Who is the arbiter of what it means to be a man or woman for YOU?

 

[zapatos]

9 minutes ago, pears said:

Because this is a science forum so there must be a good basis for such an idea.

Exactly. And we share and exchange ideas with those who have an open mind and are open to scientific debate. Asking me to support my position when you've made up your mind beforehand is not arguing in good faith. I'll not waste my time.

13 minutes ago, pears said:

Change my mind.

I'd rather attempt to shave my head with a cheese grater.

[Phi for All]

19 minutes ago, pears said:

I assume I am my sexed body.

Most people do, and some of them realize at some point that they feel differently now that they know what society is asking of them. The key in all this is to empathize with those who don't or can't make the assumptions you do. 

22 minutes ago, pears said:

Because this is a science forum so there must be a good basis for such an idea. If I rocked up and stated I have a soul because I feel like I have one I'd be torn to shreds.

Change my mind. With scientific evidence.

The reason we know you're arguing in bad faith is all the evidence you ignored by not reading the other 79 pages of this thread. 

[pears]

30 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Exactly. And we share and exchange ideas with those who have an open mind and are open to scientific debate. Asking me to support my position when you've made up your mind beforehand is not arguing in good faith. I'll not waste my time.

I'd rather attempt to shave my head with a cheese grater.

I haven't made up my mind. I just haven't seen evidence. I guess if you can't provide any that tells me something.

33 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

"Identity" implies that the individual "identifies" as a particular gender. It's not unlike homosexuality. Who tests you for homosexuality? Who is the arbiter of what it means to be a man or woman for YOU?

 

But that is about sexual attraction. There is a measurable physiological response there. In males it's particularly obvious.

Ok so there is empirical evidence in this thread for gender identity? Great. I'll go through in more detail and find it.

37 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Most people do, and some of them realize at some point that they feel differently now that they know what society is asking of them. The key in all this is to empathize with those who don't or can't make the assumptions you do. 

The reason we know you're arguing in bad faith is all the evidence you ignored by not reading the other 79 pages of this thread. 

I do empathize with those who feel distress at their sexed bodies. But what I'm looking for is evidence for innate 'gender identity' that we can be sure exists like hands and hearts exist. I'll go through the thread again to find it.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, pears said:

I haven't made up my mind. I just haven't seen evidence. I guess if you can't provide any that tells me something.

But that is about sexual attraction. There is a measurable physiological response there. In males it's particularly obvious.

Ok so there is empirical evidence in this thread for gender identity? Great. I'll go through in more detail and find it.

I do empathize with those who feel distress at their sexed bodies. But what I'm looking for is evidence for innate 'gender identity' that we can be sure exists like hands and hearts exist. I'll go through the thread again to find it.

Hands and hearts can be photographed and shared, GI cannot as it isn't a 'thing'. It's a process or behaviour. I doubt one can tie it down to one component of the body.

[mistermack]

2 hours ago, pears said:

I can understand gender/sex dysphoria as a concept but not innate gender identity. It sounds like pseudoscience to me because I don't see how it can be tested for.

Gender identity is a pretty recent phenomenon, in the numbers we see now. And sexuality is such a complex emotion that you can't rely on what people say is actually what's really in their head. 

Some people are in real denial, when they realise that they are attracted to their own sex. Homosexuality still has acceptance problems. It must be hard to grow up with all the gay jokes flying around, and then realise you're gay yourself. And it must be worse if you are attracted to straight men (or women, in the case of lesbians) and not gays. 

The outlook must be pretty bleak, but the option of becoming transgender might appeal as a possible way of getting a non-gay straight partner, and allow you to avoid admitting to yourself that you're gay. 

I'm only guessing here, but my one trans friend is absolutely adamant that he's not gay. (I haven't discussed it with him but other friends have told me that) And he's still with his long-term female partner. It's obviously a very complicated life to be living.

[TheVat]

Biology forum.  Not unfounded and weird guesses about ulterior motives for transitioning forum.  Also, is your friend cool with the "he" pronouns you keep dropping?  It's called misgendering, n'est-ce pas? 

58 minutes ago, mistermack said:

And sexuality is such a complex emotion that you can't rely on what people say is actually what's really in their head. 

You may rely on the truth of me saying I want to walk like an Egyptian with Susannah Hoffs, formerly of The Bangles.  It is not complex.  When a police officer arrests me and informs me that anything I say may be held against me in a court of law, I will reply "Susannah Hoffs."  Worth a try.

 

[swansont]

 

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Gender identity is a pretty recent phenomenon, in the numbers we see now. And sexuality is such a complex emotion that you can't rely on what people say is actually what's really in their head. 

Some people are in real denial, when they realise that they are attracted to their own sex. Homosexuality still has acceptance problems. It must be hard to grow up with all the gay jokes flying around, and then realise you're gay yourself. And it must be worse if you are attracted to straight men (or women, in the case of lesbians) and not gays. 

The outlook must be pretty bleak, but the option of becoming transgender might appeal as a possible way of getting a non-gay straight partner, and allow you to avoid admitting to yourself that you're gay. 

I'm only guessing here, but my one trans friend is absolutely adamant that he's not gay. (I haven't discussed it with him but other friends have told me that) And he's still with his long-term female partner. It's obviously a very complicated life to be living.

I don’t suppose this has any scientific backing.

Anyway, The American Psychological Association disagrees.

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq

“Sexual orientation and gender identity are not the same thing—they are distinct aspects of being a person”

 

 

[mistermack]

11 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Biology forum.  Not unfounded and weird guesses about ulterior motives for transitioning forum.  Also, is your friend cool with the "he" pronouns you keep dropping?  It's called misgendering, n'est-ce pas? 

Whatever motive you assign to what people say is guesswork. You don't know what they're thinking, any more than I do.

And my friend alternates in how he presents, from day to day, and he generally dresses male when meeting up with old friends. (or neutral) 

[iNow]

5 hours ago, pears said:

It sounds like pseudoscience to me because I don't see how it can be tested for. <…> Change my mind. With scientific evidence.

 

Identity is about who we are and how we identify ourselves to others. 

I could tell you I identify as a father, and while I could share pictures of me with my kids or submit to a paternity test to meet your arbitrarily high threshold in the name of science, most commonly we simply accept my statement as true since it’s ME telling YOU how I identify MYSELF.

Likewise, I might identify as a baseball fan. I could produce tickets to the games I’ve attended and post all the games I’ve watched on TV in the past year and even all the times I’ve participated out on the diamond with friends, but most commonly my saying “I identify as a baseball fan” is sufficient based on my say so alone. You don’t ask to test it and submit it for peer review.

Perhaps I was born in Russia then later moved to Germany. I could show you my passport and citizenship papers, but if I tell you I now identify as German, that really ought to be enough no matter how much you love the motherland and hate that I’ve defected. 

Perhaps I was given the name John at birth, and now tell you I instead identify myself as Bruce or Loretta. You don’t get to tell me I’m not allowed to do that like some entitled overseeing brat. 

And on and on and on ad infinitum … I could identify as a reader, or an audiophile, or as an art lover, or a car collector, or a weapons expert and cigar aficionado, a brewer, a builder, a lover of memes… and you wouldn’t sit here demanding that I produce scientific evidence to support these. 

It’s about ME telling YOU how I identify MYSELF, and you don’t get to tell me I’m wrong no matter how forcefully you disagree with the identity of myself I’ve expressed.

It’s simply not your place. End program. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

YOU have no say in anything related to MY identity, and gender identity is obviously no different. 

[richards1]

Transgender individuals authentically telling us how they identify are not delusional. 

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, richards1 said:

Transgender individuals authentically telling us how they identify are not delusional. 

Identity and feelings are often conflated/interchanged as synonymous, but feelings are conditional on the stability of ones self-identity.

Self-identity should be consistent over long periods for a person to function productively in the social and personal spheres.

Feelings can change without affecting ones sense of core identity, if they are reasonably transient, but absence of a stable, personal identity creates a continuous state of unstable feelings, with the potential for pathological consequences.

I would be interested to know how much of a trans' mental state is  endogenous vs reactive, due to a persistent, negative social reception.

Edited August 2, 2023 by StringJunky

[Phi for All]

16 hours ago, mistermack said:

Some people are in real denial, when they realise that they are attracted to their own sex. Homosexuality still has acceptance problems. It must be hard to grow up with all the gay jokes flying around, and then realise you're gay yourself. And it must be worse if you are attracted to straight men (or women, in the case of lesbians) and not gays. 

The outlook must be pretty bleak, but the option of becoming transgender might appeal as a possible way of getting a non-gay straight partner, and allow you to avoid admitting to yourself that you're gay. 

Most of the problems LGBTQA folks have are because of you and those who think like you. Their outlook is only bleak when confronted by those who deny them the right to identify themselves as they wish, something I'm sure you want for yourself. That's the "real denial".

[mistermack]

6 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Most of the problems LGBTQA folks have are because of you and those who think like you.

I was going on what I've heard from gay people. Stephen Fry, for example, probably the most famous British gay man, said that he was enormously depressed when he realised he was gay, and he determined to accept being gay, but to stay celibate, and he kept to that for a long time. 

I've heard other people say similar things in the past, of having trouble dealing with the realisation that they were gay. When you're brought up in a fairly homophobic world, it must be hard to get your head around it. 

Anyway, what do you mean "think like you" ? I write my thoughts down here as clearly as I can, you can quote them directly if you want to criticise. There's no need for your cowardly sneery smears. 

[StringJunky]

12 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I was going on what I've heard from gay people. Stephen Fry, for example, probably the most famous British gay man, said that he was enormously depressed when he realised he was gay, and he determined to accept being gay, but to stay celibate, and he kept to that for a long time. 

I've heard other people say similar things in the past, of having trouble dealing with the realisation that they were gay. When you're brought up in a fairly homophobic world, it must be hard to get your head around it. 

Anyway, what do you mean "think like you" ? I write my thoughts down here as clearly as I can, you can quote them directly if you want to criticise. There's no need for your cowardly sneery smears. 

Fry's realization and ensuing internal cognitive resistance illustrates that these states of the human condition are not arbitrary choices.

Edited August 2, 2023 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

9 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Fry's realization and ensuing internal cognitive resistance illustrates that these states of the human condition are not arbitrary choices.

Well said +1

I wonder if that will be enough to bring this sad little roundabout to a halt??? 🤒

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Well said +1

I wonder if that will be enough to bring this sad little roundabout to a halt??? 🤒

Since it proposes nothing toward resolving the issue with regard to sports participation, XY advantage or competitive fairness in female sports...why would it?

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Since it proposes nothing toward resolving the issue with regard to sports participation, XY advantage or competitive fairness in female sports...why would it?

Well, the only argument/objection you seem to have is a fundamental part of being a transsexual, namely HRT, and however you try to spin that, it's just an excuse to object.

So for me it's a dead end, so I'm not going to spin again, until I see an actual reason for your basic position on this...

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Well, the only argument/objection you seem to have is a fundamental part of being a transsexual, namely HRT

It isn't.

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

and however you try to spin that, it's just an excuse to object.

So for me it's a dead end, so I'm not going to spin again, until I see an actual reason for your basic position on this...

Your inability to understand my reasoning or position, and your assumptions that it's guided by malice toward transexuals, does absolutely nothing toward helping transexuals in sports or otherwise.

 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It isn't.

Please explain.

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Your inability to understand my reasoning or position, and your assumptions that it's guided by malice toward transexuals, does absolutely nothing toward helping transexuals in sports or otherwise.

I understand your position just fine, because if it isn't that you object to them playing, before any evidence can be collected, then wtf have we been talking about in the past 80 page's?🥱

More to the point, answer the question, pretty please, any one of them, I don't mind, just once, but for the love of god/whoever not more spin... 🙏

[J.C.MacSwell]

34 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Please explain.

 

HRT is not fundamental to transitioning, it's an extra step that many transsexuals may choose to take, or choose to avoid.

Generally this is done in consultation with the individual's health care providers, assessing the health risks involved of taking the treatments and/or the health risks of avoiding them.

Any use of HRT beyond that to reach arbitrarily targets set by others represents outside interference, and often increases the health risks and decreases any health benefits whether long term or short term. (This statement is consistent with the current guidelines of the IOC, United Nations Human Rights Council, and the World Medical Association)

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

 

I understand your position just fine, because if it isn't that you object to them playing, before any evidence can be collected, then wtf have we been talking about in the past 80 page's?🥱

 

There was plenty of evidence to support my position well before this thread started. 80 pages in you fail to understand my position. Others have, even if they don't agree with it in whole or in part.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

HRT is not fundamental to transitioning, it's an extra step that many transsexuals may choose to take, or choose to avoid.

Generally this is done in consultation with the individual's health care providers, assessing the health risks involved of taking the treatments and/or the health risks of avoiding them.

Any use of HRT beyond that to reach arbitrarily targets set by others represents outside interference, and often increases the health risks and decreases any health benefits whether long term or short term. (This statement is consistent with the current guidelines of the IOC, United Nations Human Rights Council, and the World Medical Association)

There was plenty of evidence to support my position well before this thread started. 80 pages in you fail to understand my position. Others have, even if they don't agree with it in whole or in part.

OK, thanks for the explanation as regards HRT, I'll take it as read if you like (cough citation), but that aside, how can you have evidence of how well they play together, if they aren't allowed to play together?

And so the wheel spins, and is never going to be resolved/halted; as long as people KNOW that it's wrong to try. 

Now, please answer the question/s, I know you know I meant and stop being deliberately obtuse, pretty please with knobs on ("clean the fucking car")...

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Any use of HRT beyond that to reach arbitrarily targets set by others represents outside interference, and often increases the health risks and decreases any health benefits whether long term or short term. (This statement is consistent with the current guidelines of the IOC, United Nations Human Rights Council, and the World Medical Association)

I might have missed some intermediate posts, but fundamentally, when we talk about transgender inclusion, we are talking about some level of some level of HRT. AFAIK, folks that have not undergo some level of gender affirming therapy do compete based on their assigned sex (which usually is based on presence of external genitalia), rather than the gender they are representing. 

That being said, I found some articles discussing something that we have been circling around in this thread for a fair bit, is the idea of using "athletic gender". The basic idea is to designate athletes to a gender for sports performance only and using a quantitative criteria based performance. Originally the idea was focused on testosterone levels, but has been expanded (similar to our discussions here).

But the basic idea is the same, use quantitative parameters to create categories.