Transgender athletes

[iNow]

Question to the thread: Tell me again why setting qualification thresholds for divisions and classes in sports can’t be achieved using metrics which ignore gender…whatever they may be?

[dimreepr]

31 minutes ago, iNow said:

Question to the thread: Tell me again why setting qualification thresholds for divisions and classes in sports can’t be achieved using metrics which ignore gender…whatever they may be?

If I had to guess; someone didn't want to lose... +1 BTW...

Edited July 5, 2021 by dimreepr

[Holmes]

18 hours ago, CharonY said:

I fail to see how this is relevant to the discussion. Feminine is a group of traits that are traditionally associated with what we consider to be women. I.e. it is a collection of cultural traits that are part of the gender constructs in a given society.

But people are struggling to define "Woman" so I do not see how we can define "Feminine" by reference to Women other than as a recourse to history.

If we are willing to define things based on history and tradition then Women have vaginas, XX chromosome and allowing a person who is not a woman to compete in a women's team is therefore a contradictory act that prejudices women.

That is why my question is relevant.

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Depending on society the certain traits can be either feminine or masculine.

Yes and that distinction is based wholly on the historic fact that there are men and women.

I agree with you, but you must accept surely, that we need solid definitions for Man and Woman if we are to define Feminine and Masculine.

Quote

In the Mosuo society, for example, making business decisions is considered a feminine activity, whereas in most others it is more associated with men. But again, other than to complicate matters I am not sure how that helps in any way. 

Again you are forced to base your explanation on the assumption there's a definition for Women but there is not.

Quote

Edit: However, if you think feminine is an objective indicator of sorts, then I think that could be the root of the issue. Perhaps read the link I provided earlier and see how that relates to your thinking on that issue.

I think Man and Woman are objective, XY and XX chromosomes is a scientific fact based way to define these classes of individuals.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Holmes

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Holmes said:

But people are struggling to define "Woman" so I do not see how we can define "Feminine" by reference to Women other than as a recourse to history.

FFS, how is that relevant?

 

4 minutes ago, Holmes said:

I think Man and Woman are objective, XY and XX chromosomes is a scientific fact based way to define these classes of individuals.

I think you're full of shit; for instance, in a same sex marriage, who wears the trousers? 

[zapatos]

9 hours ago, MigL said:

I just don't agree with disadvantaging one group ( cis women ) to equalize another ( trans women ).

And what is your position regarding disadvantaging trans women who wish to compete?

[MigL]

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

FFS, how is that relevant?

So you think our society has moved past where we need to define differences between men and women ?
Yet are perfectly happy with the 47 'defined' genders, LGBQT+...

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I think you're full of shit; for instance, in a same sex marriage, who wears the trousers? 

FFS, how is that relevant ?
Notice how my response above doesn't add much to the discussion ?
( this is a teaching moment )

 

11 minutes ago, zapatos said:

And what is your position regarding disadvantaging trans women who wish to compete?

I don't think they should be disadvantaged either. 
But the solution is never to hurt one group with the intent to better another.
And if the intent is to minimize the harm, certainly you are harming fewer trans athletes than cis athletes, but like I previously stated, I don't have a simple solution.

[iNow]

32 minutes ago, Holmes said:

I think Man and Woman are objective, XY and XX chromosomes is a scientific fact based way to define these classes of individuals

I’d agree with you, but then we’d both be wrong. You’ve been corrected on this point above at least 4 distinct times in this thread. It’s a shame you’ve not comprehended those corrections and are simply digging in your heals when shown to be mistaken. 

1 minute ago, MigL said:

if the intent is to minimize the harm, certainly you are harming fewer trans athletes than cis athletes, but like I previously stated, I don't have a simple solution.

Tell me again why setting qualification thresholds for divisions and classes in sports can’t be achieved using metrics which ignore gender…whatever they may be?

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

So you think our society has moved past where we need to define differences between men and women ?

No. It's my struggle against reality... 😉

[MigL]

Qualification thresholds would ensure equality ( or close to it ) of outcome.
If the threshold is 10 second 100m, it would ensure every competitor ran 9.9 sec. and training, effort ( and steroids in Ben Johnson's case ) count for nothing.

As studiot explained earlier, equality of outcome is NOT competition.
Equality of opportunity is.

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

Equality of opportunity is.

So we all play the game?

[zapatos]

24 minutes ago, MigL said:

I don't think they should be disadvantaged either. 
But the solution is never to hurt one group with the intent to better another.

So can I extrapolate from your position that you are in favor of pursuing solutions that allow both trans women and cis women to participate in sports as long as the we can find an equitable way to do so?

[MigL]

I am now going to go off on a tangent ...

When you decide to have your gender reassigned from male to female, I'm sure it is explained to you that there are some things you previously did, that you won't be able to do anymore.
Like peeing standing up !

What is this obsession we have that everyone should be able to do whatever they wish, no matter their life choices ?
If it is an aspect of survival, like a crippled person entering a grocery store to buy food using a ramp, then we as a compassionate society need to make it happen.
And certainly, if competition is your livelyhood then trans athletes need to be able to compete, but if it is just for fum ( or games for Dimreepr ) then that is not required and cannot be considered a 'human right'.

I had the same problem as Studiot; always wanted to fly jets, yet my vision sucks.
Is it a 'human right' that I be able to fly jets ?
Or do I suck it up and live my life without that thrill ?

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

as long as the we can find an equitable way to do so?

Of course Zap.
I consider myself 'compassionate'.
But, as to wether it is a 'rght', human or otherwise, I'm not so sure.

[dimreepr]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

I am now going to go off on a tangent ...

yeah you are... Is that fair?

[Holmes]

59 minutes ago, zapatos said:

And what is your position regarding disadvantaging trans women who wish to compete?

What is a "disadvantaged" Trans-woman? disadvantaged relative to what?

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Holmes said:

But people are struggling to define "Woman" so I do not see how we can define "Feminine" by reference to Women other than as a recourse to history.

Note the use of “traditional” in that explanation. IOW it references pat views and excludes the current realization that gender is not so simply defined.

One might think that the dictionary definition of “feminine” might someday include “archaic” in the notes.

 

2 minutes ago, Holmes said:

What is a "disadvantaged" Trans-woman? disadvantaged relative to what?

Perhaps one whose rights are being denied, are at least not being recognized? Like just about any minority, to some extent.

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

What is this obsession we have that everyone should be able to do whatever they wish, no matter their life choices ?

Who is "we"? I haven't seen that attitude expressed in this thread.

What I have seen expressed is the attitude that ALL citizens should be afforded equal opportunities that are not 'less equal' due to race, sex, gender, country of origin, etc. 

It is your wording in these threads that often put you at odds with some of us. I doubt you meant that being trans is a 'life choice', but when you say things like that it make it seem as if you've relegated transgender people to some 'reduced' or less important category.

2 minutes ago, Holmes said:

What is a "disadvantaged" Trans-woman? disadvantaged relative to what?

To a cis woman.

[Holmes]

Just now, zapatos said:

It is your wording in these threads that often put you at odds with some of us. 

You mean, puts you at odds with him?

[iNow]

29 minutes ago, MigL said:

Qualification thresholds would ensure equality ( or close to it ) of outcome.

This is false and based on poor reasoning IMO.

I’m thinking of categories like weight classes in wrestling as an easy example. Even when 2 wrestlers are at the exact same weight (the thing which qualifies them to compete in that particular class), they are never equal in skill nor guaranteed a win as the outcome. Same for boxing and many other sports.

I’m simply proposing we extend this type of categorization, minus concern for gender. Voila… doesn’t matter if you’re trans, boy, girl, or other. You either qualify for that class or you don’t. Once qualified, you compete against other similarly qualified humans. 

[Holmes]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

Perhaps one whose rights are being denied, are at least not being recognized? Like just about any minority, to some extent.

Like the right to choose to make oneself a member of a disadvantaged group?

[iNow]

18 minutes ago, MigL said:

What is this obsession we have that everyone should be able to do whatever they wish, no matter their life choices ?

A few things. Like being gay, I reject that idea that being trans is a choice. Second, we’re not talking about “anybody doing any thing.” We’re talking about trans humans in sports. 

18 minutes ago, MigL said:

I had the same problem as Studiot; always wanted to fly jets, yet my vision sucks.
Is it a 'human right' that I be able to fly jets ?
Or do I suck it up and live my life without that thrill ?

No, you simply didn’t meet the threshold requirements. It’s no different than what I’m describing for sports. 

Being male or being female shouldn’t be a threshold requirement. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by iNow

[Holmes]

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

To a cis woman.

How so? how is a person who voluntarily elects to become a trans-woman disadvantaged relative to a woman? 

 

[iNow]

1 minute ago, Holmes said:

How so? how is a person who voluntarily elects to become a trans-woman disadvantaged relative to a woman? 

 

Ugh. Same argument like we used to hear about people “choosing” to be gay. Such ridiculous thinking 

[Holmes]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

Ugh. Same argument like we used to hear about people “choosing” to be gay. Such ridiculous thinking 

This is the strawman tactic at work, clearly you can't control this habit and is the reason you've lost the privilege of engaging in conversation with me,

Edited July 5, 2021 by Holmes

[zapatos]

10 minutes ago, Holmes said:

You mean, puts you at odds with him?

Why do you keep trolling me? Go away.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

I think you're full of shit;

!

Moderator Note

I think you know better than to make this personal. Don't attack people.