different water?

[jowrose]

Ok so I was perusing the ads section of popular science (some of it's cool, some of it's just wacko) and I came across an "ad for information" regarding a new technology that supposedly alters the chemical formation of water. The ad itself was poorly written (didn't give any scientific evidence at all) and just had one reported quote from a professor who exclaimed that this new product altered the angle between the two H atoms in a water molecule by 10 degrees. The writers claim that the angle is now 114 degrees.

 

What I was wondering was; Is any of this scientifically possible? If so, what implications could it have in the real world? Just bottle it as "freaky water" or could it have some use in medecine or other technologies?

 

I forget what month the issue of popular science is; i believe it is august (2005) but i'm not sure. It has the cover story of the engineered superhumans...

 

thanks.

[insane_alien]

don't see why that would change the chemical properties much if it was possible. well it is possible in certain conditions but when you bring the water back to standard temp/pressure then it goes back to normal. its to lure in gullible people i think.

[jowrose]

I agree, I seriously doubt the ad's credibility. The ad spends more time gloating about the "inventors" previous successes than describing the magical water product.

 

But even if it were possible to create this water for sustained periods of time, would it have any important uses?

[mezarashi]

I'm not sure what kind of chemical classification this would fall under. Normally, you can have isomers and such for a certain compound say H2O, but you don't have an altering of bond angles. Only a chemistry expert should be able to say whether this is even possible at all, but from what I know, it doesn't seem to be. The way atoms bond is to reach the lowest energy state, and there is only one of such a state. Without any evidence, I would pass it as a hoax.

 

In anycase, the consequences of such a case would be many. This would affect the water molecules polarity and interaction with solvents. Upon freezing, water's crystalline structure would be different, meaning different heats of fusion. Will we know whether this will lead to a higher or lower density? So will the ice of this "strange water" float?

 

It's like the question of asking what if the charge of an electron were to increase by 1x10^-20 colombs, how would physics be different.

[Ophiolite]

This link provides some reasonably detailed information on the structure of the water molecule that is useful background for this thread. http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html

[insane_alien]

it could be a higher density liquid as the molecules could maybe fit closer together but it would boil easier as it has less polarity. i don't think it is possible cos the 2 lone pairs of electrons keep the hydrogen atoms held at their usual angle and only thermal vibrations cause it to differ momentarily

[jowrose]

Although it is most likely just a hoax, the possibilities are interesting. Perhaps, as the molecule would be "skinnier" it could pass through membranes that normal water cannot. Or, as alien said it could have different boiling times or whatnot. Or the composition of the ice could be different. Who knows.

[jowrose]

Oh yeah, thanks for that link ophiolite. That's really informative. So the regular angle of the atoms is 104.5 degrees, and the claimed angle for the magic water is 114.

[Kyrisch]

So it said nothing about how it was done, why it was done, what the creators are planning to do with the substance, or what the substance was called? (I don't think the fathers of this stuff are going to call it "strange/freaky water.") Not even any keywords to put into Google?

 

<edit>

I'm so stupid... there are always keywords. "change angle water molecule 114" (Without the quotes) got me this:

 

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/johnellisbunk.html

 

The angle change as well as the other absurd claims apparently are all false.

</edit>

[jowrose]

nope, not a word of explanation. it was poorly written too, somewhat humorous. I'm almost certain it was a hoax but then i got to thinking that the possibilities would be pretty interesting.

 

the only option was to send in this card and recieve "free information." hmm, maybe i'll do that. I'm hooked now.

[jowrose]

ahhh ok here's the website anyone who's interested...

 

http://www.johnellis.com/fs_main.htm

[Kyrisch]

Awww, that's crap that is... A load of propoganda. My link is better

[jowrose]

yes, your link is better, but the johnellis one is funny. I'd love to see an infomercial myself...

[insane_alien]

ROFLMAO!!! that site has made my day i'll be laughing about that for years to come. HAHAHAHAHhahahahahahahahahahah!

[jowrose]

Do you know if the website says how much the magic-water creating machine is? I'd love to see how much people spent on one when you can buy a pot that does that job just as well for about 10 bucks...

[insane_alien]

$1,500 - $1,700 its on the orders page. I couldn't have read that right. i've checked 3 times and i still can't believe its that high! Thats more than my car is worth! MYGOD people are dumb to buy that!

[jowrose]

are you kidding?!?! that's insane! this john ellis guy really is a genius if he can get people to buy this thing... he deserves more credit than we've been giving him.

[Glider]

Not really, but the people who buy it deserve some serious contempt.

[insane_alien]

if it was something like $15 or even $150 i could kind of imagine some gullible people buying it. but not at the prices he's selling them for.

i want to talk o someone who actually bought one. try to talk some sense into them. or slap them back to reality

[jowrose]

Yes, i would like to see if they were cured of cancer or aids after the machine. what would be really bizarre though is if they really thought they were being cured. That whole psychological syndrome where if you really believe you are pregnant then you start experiencing symptoms or if you believe you are being cured of cancer you actually feel better...

 

that would be weird

[Kyrisch]

Placebo effects have been proven to be startingly real for many disorders and diseases.

[jowrose]

Ah that's what the effect is called, I forgot.

 

Do you think it would work for a computer? Like, what if i kept telling my computer that it really wasn't screwing up my internet every 5 minutes? Would it stop screwing up? Or perhaps I keep telling myself that my computer isn't screwing up? then does it stop?

 

cause it's really pissing me off.

[insane_alien]

if the placebo effect is there then fair do's its probably worth it if its curing your cancer or something like that. but if it isn't or someone bought it to try and cure their cold or something then he is being a bit of a con.

[jowrose]

well, charging 1500 dollars for a water-boiling device tends to be a bit "connish" by nature...

[H2SO4]

id imagine anyone who has enough money on hand (like someone wealthy, college educated) wouldnt buy this. Also, if it was possible, im sure the bonds would go to thier normal size almost instantly, unless kept under extreme pressure. I rememeber about a year ago, i was in the store with y mom, and i saw this: a case of ten water bottles, for abut 10$. I was like wtf. I read it and it made the same clame about the bonds and crap. Doesnt a product like this have to get authorized by the FDA or other goverment processes to get on your supermarket shelf. The goverment doesnt let these companies sell stuff like this if their test conclude its false. How did this get on the shelfs at safeway?