Flooding the planet

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Mender said:

I’ve seen limbs grow in front of my eyes and deaf ears hear ... all with long term evidence  ... sadly science seems to discount such “miracles”as anomalies mostly because they don’t fit into the “scientific” landscape and cannot be explained

The explanation is delusion in the observer, sometimes madness, even group psychosis. 

[Mender]

I said her leg grew to match the other one which is what the prayer was for ... actually 18mm as that was the length that was missing ... now it may be that her sacroiliac joint adjusted but the result was the same

But the fact that we all saw a movement that was impossible for the subject to perform on her own was what made it extraordinary 

On 3/18/2021 at 11:14 PM, Bufofrog said:

The bible says bats are birds, they aren't.

Where does the Bible say bats are birds?

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, Mender said:

I said her leg grew to match the other one which is what the prayer was for ... actually 18mm as that was the length that was missing ... now it may be that her sacroiliac joint adjusted but the result was the same

But the fact that we all saw a movement that was impossible for the subject to perform on her own was what made it extraordinary 

 

It's easy to be trapped by knowledge, what we know to be true and while scientists aren't immune to bias/the trap; it's easier for them to overcome because they're aware of the trap, they understand the limits of our perception because they've been taught by someone who does understand.

That doesn't mean the knowledge written in the bible is useless, it just means that understanding the bible is that much more difficult, because your teacher doesn't understand.

IOW don't go looking for miracles to explain a metaphor. 

 

[Bufofrog]

1 hour ago, Mender said:

I said her leg grew to match the other one which is what the prayer was for ... actually 18mm as that was the length that was missing ... now it may be that her sacroiliac joint adjusted but the result was the same

But the fact that we all saw a movement that was impossible for the subject to perform on her own was what made it extraordinary 

That's good, you aren't crazy you are just deluding yourself.  This is pretty common for people who want a belief to be true.

1 hour ago, Mender said:

Where does the Bible say bats are birds?

Leviticus 11:13-19

[dimreepr]

35 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

This is pretty common for people who want a belief to be true.

indeed, but not exclusive...

[Mender]

Hi Bufofrog you’re right he does add bats in with birds ...and it’s a shame right now that someone wasn’t following this guideline ... a lot of trouble wouldn’t have happened .... but thx for that reference .. I have to admit I’d never seen that inclusion as a problem until now

and I get what you say about wanting a belief to be true but no-one was expecting anything to happen ... we’ve prayed for dozens of people who are ill and not seen any obvious change .. certainly not as dramatic as that ... but when you see anything happen you never forget it and as was pointed out to me .. the cumulative evidence over time begins to create belief until a thing is 100%  ... 

I’ve realised that I was a lepton now I’m a quark ... is that an improvement?

[zapatos]

20 minutes ago, Mender said:

I’ve realised that I was a lepton now I’m a quark ... is that an improvement?

It doesn't man anything at all. It's just a cute way built into the software to categorize people based on number of posts. I'd be surprised if anyone here knew what all the categories are and when you switch from one to the other.

[studiot]

On 3/19/2021 at 1:57 PM, studiot said:

On 3/19/2021 at 1:40 PM, Mender said:

how about the concept of a “design” behind the universe that is gathering pace within prominent scientific thought and this obviously points to a “designer”

 

Just because you would like it to be true doesn't validate this statement.

In fact quite the reverse situation is true.

The peak of scientific effort being directed towards revealing details of a 'designer' occurred between 100 and 300 years ago and has been declining ever since.

Today it is probably at an all time low point.

 

On 3/19/2021 at 2:18 PM, studiot said:

Perhaps so, but that does not invalidate my point.
I expect there will always be a residual few who wish to cling to unsupported belief systems.

 

Please answer my point directly. Particularly as you say you wish to discuss , and that is the purpose of this webforum.

The perhaps we can address some of your other claims, particularly those highly selective ones about the contents of the Bible.

 

Hello Mender,

I see the relevence of your "nom de forum".  Nice.

I'm sorry that this thread has been allowed to wander far and wide off the stated topic which is a valid question on a scientific forum concerning what we know about geological history.

Indeed I admit to veering off myself when you introduced the proposal of intelligent design.

Sadly you chose to challenge my additional comment suggesting we leave discussion about belief systems rather than answer my point as I asked when you responded.

So my point and question as noted in my first quote still stands unanswered by your response quoted below.

 

18 hours ago, Mender said:

Why do you call them unsupported belief systems when in 2020 over 54% of the worlds population are either Christian or Islamic believers and only 19% are atheists 

And of course termite mounds aren’t accidental .. as I say they have a very specific construction design

And as for discussing the bible  which of my claims would you like to discuss?

 

So let us return to your original question aboud Noah's Flood.

Firstly you might be more comfortable with this explanation that arguing with 'aethists (which I am not) or about intelligent design.

Here is a link and the beginning of the article

Quote

https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-should-we-interpret-the-genesis-flood-account/

The story of Noah, the ark, and the Flood in Genesis 6-9 is one of the most famous and controversial passages in the entire Bible. The story, centered around a global cataclysm and a floating wooden zoo, has captured the imagination of people for millennia. Until modern times, most Christians assumed the story referred to an actual worldwide event that happened in the relatively recent past, and this interpretation of the Flood continues to be a central feature of Young Earth Creationism. However, the discoveries of modern science, as well as an explosion of new knowledge about the ancient world of the Bible, have decisively challenged whether this interpretation is the best reading of the text. This includes the work of many Christian scholars and scientists who were (and continue to be) guided by a belief that all truth is God’s truth, that Scripture is inspired, and that the testimony of God’s creation should not be ignored. The scientific and historical evidence is now clear: there has never been a global flood that covered the entire earth, nor do all modern animals and humans descend from the passengers of a single vessel.

Relating science and Scripture

When discoveries in God’s world conflict with interpretations of God’s Word, Christians have three options:

1. Abandon our faith in order to accept the results of science,
2. Deny the scientific evidence to maintain our interpretations of Scripture,
3. Reconsider our interpretations of Scripture in light of the evidence from God’s creation

Christians, by definition, reject Option 1. Option 2 has a terrible historical track record, and many prominent historical theologians have urged Christians not to ignore or dismiss the findings of science. Option 3 represents the best tradition among Christians, and history provides many examples of our knowledge of the natural world helping to correct faulty interpretations of Scripture. The discoveries of Copernicus and Galileo (that the Earth is not the center of the universe), for instance, changed the Church’s perspective on whether the Bible intends to teach us about Earth’s place in the solar system.

 

You also seem prepared to listen so here is an interesting unconventional but scientific explanation of the 'Flood'.

It is a known (in modern times) fact of mechanics that a spinning top has two stable positions and can flip between them, so that the spin axis reverses itself.
There is a proposal that at some time past this happend to the Earth so that the North and South poles of the mechanical spin axis interchanged.
(Please note this is not the magnetic pole reversals which are quite a different phenomenon)

Peter Warlow wrote a book about it called The Reversing Earth, which suggests this sudden flip caused whateve water there was to slosh around the globe like a giant tidal wave.

Note again it is not generally accepted that it did happen, but it is accepted that it could happen within current scientific knowledge.

 

[Mender]

Thx for that I’ve heard of the magnetic shift but not the “ reversal “ that you speak of and the possibility is there ." How long would such an event take to settle down and become stable ? What about an ice meteorite strike into the deepest ocean ... would that have a similar effect and leave no trace?

Of course there is a fourth option as well .... that God exists and if so is quite capable of telling water and animals to do exactly what happened in genesis 6 as he did with the parting of the Red Sea in exodus and has kept science working alongside the church with a different purpose to give all the peoples of the earth a choice as to what they believe ... occasionally sharing our thoughts along the way

Sorry I should have said theology not church in my previous post

[studiot]

18 minutes ago, Mender said:

Thx for that I’ve heard of the magnetic shift but not the “ reversal “ that you speak of and the possibility is there ." How long would such an event take to settle down and become stable ? What about an ice meteorite strike into the deepest ocean ... would that have a similar effect and leave no trace?

Tippe Tops are made as toys, there is plenty on google about them, here is a youtube video.

But remember it is not generally eccepted that this happened.

Given that we do not fully understand the Earths core dynamo, it has been suggested that flipping just the core causes the magnetic reversals.

But remember there is much we do not know and there is not enough evidence to confirm either proposal.

What did you think of the Christian website modern interpretation ?

[Mender]

I have another question ... is the gravitational field of the earth stable or is it increasing or decreasing by a measurable amount each year?

[To_Mars_and_Beyond]

Assuming the God doesn't exist, there may still be truth to the Biblical story of the Deluge. It seems unlikely to me that the ancients would have observed the sea level changes, so we need to rule out a global explanation. The stories of the Deluge, found in many cultures, could originate from a localized flood. One options is a legendary spring flood. Another one is a Tsunami. I personally find this the most convincing explanation.  

[Area54]

23 minutes ago, To_Mars_and_Beyond said:

It seems unlikely to me that the ancients would have observed the sea level changes, so we need to rule out a global explanation

Why should your personal incredulity be thought convincing? The flooding of Doggerland (southern North Sea, the Black Sea, the Perisan/Arabian Gulf, Sundaland and many former coastal lowlands all occurred in the last 10ky. Do you belive no oral tradition could have been carried forward from those times? I imagine you are aware that before (and in some cases, long after) writing was invented oral historians played an important part within cultures. Why do your rule out this possibility?

Edited March 20, 2021 by Area54

[Mender]

Hi studiot 

Yes I enjoyed reading the article it poses several possibilities that lead the reader to consider the way we view scripture which is always good for us ... thx for that

[studiot]

33 minutes ago, Mender said:

I have another question ... is the gravitational field of the earth stable or is it increasing or decreasing by a measurable amount each year?

Well a long time ago the largest, (most massive) body that started drawing smaller material towards itself to form the proto-earth had a much smaller gravitational field.

As first the pieces coalesced there must have been a period of rapid increase in gravity.
This is the most likely mechanism for the emergence of a planet sized object, scooping into itself smaller chunks of matter local to itself and thus growing at the expense of other matter in its immediate vicinity.
Further material would accumulate from (smaller) passing meteorites, comets etc.

Eventually the locality would be swepts largely clean and a sort of equilibrium would be established where the planet's gravity did not change much over time.

Changes would now occur due to the decreasingly frequent capture of passing meteoric material and the loss of mass due to nuclear decay of the planet's own material.
This is the stage we are in today.

 

33 minutes ago, To_Mars_and_Beyond said:

Assuming the God doesn't exist, there may still be truth to the Biblical story of the Deluge. It seems unlikely to me that the ancients would have observed the sea level changes, so we need to rule out a global explanation. The stories of the Deluge, found in many cultures, could originate from a localized flood. One options is a legendary spring flood. Another one is a Tsunami. I personally find this the most convincing explanation.  

One difficulty with the Tsunami theory is that (at least) the Bible claims a prolonged deluge that preceeded the flood.
A Tsunami does not offer an explanation for this  - prolonged rain can happen after a Tsunami, rather than before.

Note this does not rule it out, just highlight something that needs further explanation.

[Mender]

I see no one has picked up the baton about circumcision and it’s medical benefits, is that because of lack of interest or because it leads to heavily towards the idea of intelligent design from outside human abilities?

[studiot]

1 minute ago, Mender said:

I see no one has picked up the baton about circumcision and it’s medical benefits, is that because of lack of interest or because it leads to heavily towards the idea of intelligent design from outside human abilities?

It is off topic.

[Mender]

Thanks studiot for the gravity answer .. does that mean we have been able to measure gravity over time ? The reason I ask is if gravity was stronger it could mean that trees/fauna would have to be bigger to grow to beat it and also animals would naturally have denser / stronger bones and muscles and potentially grow bigger ... certainly with no pollutants .. hence the size of dinosaurs ... but as the gravitational pull decreases the larger animals die out and smaller ones take over ... trees / fauna don’t have to fight so hard to grow and also decrease in size ... and how does science explain oil reserves being under the ground when the main contributor to create oil is plant based?

It’s not off topic to the intelligent design theory surely

Getting back to the deluge idea ... if a meteorite strikes the sea we would have a tsunami over a large part of the earth and rain over the rest .. if another struck the land as well you would have a dust cloud that might make the rain keep going for weeks as no sunlight would dry out the clouds and create a greenhouse effect that would cause moisture and evaporation... more rain et al?

[studiot]

3 minutes ago, Mender said:

t’s not off topic to the intelligent design theory surely

Unless you have/had a hidden agenda, the stated (by yourself) topic of this thread is about the Science or scientific basis of Noah's Flood as represented in the Bible and to a lesser degree as referred to in other ancient writings.

What on Earth does circumcision have to do with this ?

[Mender]

Is it possible that some of the inland water across the globe are the results of meteorites striking at an angle creating my previous posts conditions and then being filled in with water in due course?

Sorry that you have misunderstood my intentions by me raising several points along the way ... the intelligent design came in when I was replying to a post earlier and is part of my original question on how far science has progressed in uncovering the origins of man .. I see them all as interconnecting threads and all talking about science’s “agenda” to discount the possibility of creation and thereby a creator even though the two don’t have to be mutually exclusive... they can both compliment each other .. the bible is full of wisdom on things social ,medical and technical ... all of which lead us to a better world ... unfortunately mankind has used religion to control and manipulate people to their own agendas and caused destruction to millions in the process ,,,.  For this I can only apologise ....

[studiot]

5 minutes ago, Mender said:

Is it possible that some of the inland water across the globe are the results of meteorites striking at an angle creating my previous posts conditions and then being filled in with water in due course?

 

Yes it could happen and indeed there are many examples

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_crater_lake

 

 

But this also does not address the issue of the deluge I mentioned before.

Remember that the Bible was written by people used to dry semi desert and desert conditions.

It has been suggested both here and in the article I linked to that any flood was local to the people concerned.

From personal knowledge of the region I know that in the summer rainy season the area is subject to local flash floods to this day.
But these are of very short duration.

Have you heard of sabkha ? I had an interesting experience with this apparantly dry land by the Red Sea in 1976?

 

In the last two decades we have gained a new understanding of the 'ocean conveyor'.

This is the fact that the ocean current systems all link up to one giant circulatory system that moves water around the globe.
Air currents and winds are driven by this and tend to follow the distribution. So is our whole climatic system.

Not that far to the east of the middle east lies the indian sub and southy east asian sub continents.
These are subject to an annula monsoon deluge.

Another hypothesis is that one year perhaps a glitch in the ocean currents moved the monsoon west causing some sort of flood.

The possibility is worrying as changes to the ocean conveyor could dramatically change our climate.

 

 

[Bufofrog]

1 hour ago, Mender said:

Getting back to the deluge idea ... if a meteorite strikes the sea we would have a tsunami over a large part of the earth and rain over the rest

That would indeed cause a large tsunami.

1 hour ago, Mender said:

if another struck the land as well you would have a dust cloud that might make the rain keep going for weeks as no sunlight would dry out the clouds and create a greenhouse effect that would cause moisture and evaporation... more rain et al?

A large meteorite striking land would cause cooling not heating of the earth.

16 minutes ago, Mender said:

Is it possible that some of the inland water across the globe are the results of meteorites striking at an angle creating my previous posts conditions and then being filled in with water in due course?

Inland water is due to rain.

The flood myth is based on fears of the catastrophic effects of large floods and ancient people inability to understand how or why they happen.  You bring up a good point about tsunamis, they would be particularly terrifying and unexplainable.

[Mender]

Thx for the post studiot .. I hadn’t heard of subkha but I have now thx and I understand a bit more about oil as well ... can I guess that you got caught out on a salt flat by the incoming tide?

But it seems that most oil fields are thousands of feet under sea level which means that sea levels must have been  a lot lower or the seas a lot deeper?

[studiot]

6 minutes ago, Mender said:

Thx for the post studiot .. I hadn’t heard of subkha but I have now thx and I understand a bit more about oil as well ... can I guess that you got caught out on a salt flat by the incoming tide?

But it seems that most oil fields are thousands of feet under sea level which means that sea levels must have been  a lot lower or the seas a lot deeper?

No, the tide comes in and out under a sabkha crust. (Although the tide is the Red Sea is very small, especially by my standards in Somerset)

The point is that the seawater is fully even super saturated with salts and minerals so the sabkha material cannot dissolve and forms a strong solid crust on the surface.
In normal conditions this crust is so strong that the locals drive races up and down on it as it is very flat and even.
But flash floods are formed from rainwater, which is fresh.
This extra water runs floods down the wadi and empties into the sea where it dilutes the seawater enough to dissolve some salt out of the sabkha, collapsing its structure.

And no I was not caught out, I was the one sent down to extract some colleagues who had inadvisedly driven out onto it, just before a flash flood.

[Mender]

Sounds quite risky

Did you hear the sonic boom yesterday about 3 pm ? We live in Somerset too and we heard a boom ... apparently caused by a meteorite going over above jersey?