Heating in electric vehicles.

[studiot]

We have a thread on comparing electric to heat engine powered vehicles, but this and a recent discussion elsewhere inspired me to consider passenger cabin heating in electric vehicles.

IC engines have the advantage of a readily available heat source.

Does anyone have any data or experience of how an electric car is heated and how much energy this takes ?

[Endy0816]

2 hours ago, studiot said:

We have a thread on comparing electric to heat engine powered vehicles, but this and a recent discussion elsewhere inspired me to consider passenger cabin heating in electric vehicles.

IC engines have the advantage of a readily available heat source.

Does anyone have any data or experience of how an electric car is heated and how much energy this takes ?

Looks like commonly a mix of heat pumps and resistive heating.

https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/heat_pump_cabin_heater.html

Quote

Now the first batch of new 2021 Tesla Model 3 vehicles have been delivered, and YouTuber Bjorn Nyland did a comparison test with his 2019 Tesla Model 3, which doesn’t have a heat pump:

He let the heat run in both cars for several hours at 21C (70F) to see how much of a difference the heat pump made.

Based on his test, he concluded his 2019 Model 3 without the heat pump required 2,170 watts to maintain the temperature. The new 2021 Model 3, on the other hand, needed only 735 watts.

https://electrek.co/2020/12/03/tesla-model-3-heat-pump-comparison-results/

[studiot]

2 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

Looks like commonly a mix of heat pumps and resistive heating.

https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/heat_pump_cabin_heater.html

https://electrek.co/2020/12/03/tesla-model-3-heat-pump-comparison-results/

Thank you for the reply.

The test you refer to didn't mention the environmental conditions and I couldn't see any snow in the picture but I assume the ambient temp was below 70^oF.

One thing about an IC engine is that it heats the engine gompartment and fabric of the vehicle as well.

In countries like the UK internal condensation and corrosion is a problem in vehicles parked outside.
This requires heat as well as ventilation to combat.

 

[timo]

I helped my colleagues to move a Volkswagen E-Up for ~50 km between two cities about eight years ago - highway in one direction, smaller roads in the other. The car was used in a field test in the city I lived in, so it made sense for me to just go from/to work by car instead of by train. I drove on a cold but typical German winter day. Turning on the heating approximately halved the remaining range, and I ended up turning heating on and off periodically during the trip. I found that experience quite impressive back then, because I was not aware of such basic issues as heating before. I imagine that there is room for improvement when it comes to thermal insulation, and that newer cars perform better (the E-Up is an electric variant of a combustion engine design, so heating may not have been a big issue in the design). But that's speculation.

[Endy0816]

2 hours ago, studiot said:

Thank you for the reply.

The test you refer to didn't mention the environmental conditions and I couldn't see any snow in the picture but I assume the ambient temp was below 70^oF.

One thing about an IC engine is that it heats the engine gompartment and fabric of the vehicle as well.

In countries like the UK internal condensation and corrosion is a problem in vehicles parked outside.
This requires heat as well as ventilation to combat.

Yeah, I don't know the exact conditions he ran the test under, thought it good to provide some numbers though.

 

Could you run a dehumidifier? Not sure what vehicles use in the way of corrosion inhibitors or other protective measures.

Anyways I'm still waiting for more data on EV lifespans myself, before making the switch. Mainly concerned about the batteries. Charging has become a bit more practical at least.

 

2 hours ago, timo said:

I helped my colleagues to move a Volkswagen E-Up for ~50 km between two cities about eight years ago - highway in one direction, smaller roads in the other. The car was used in a field test in the city I lived in, so it made sense for me to just go from/to work by car instead of by train. I drove on a cold but typical German winter day. Turning on the heating approximately halved the remaining range, and I ended up turning heating on and off periodically during the trip. I found that experience quite impressive back then, because I was not aware of such basic issues as heating before. I imagine that there is room for improvement when it comes to thermal insulation, and that newer cars perform better (the E-Up is an electric variant of a combustion engine design, so heating may not have been a big issue in the design). But that's speculation.

The waste heat we're all used to having has left us spoiled lol.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Endy0816

[Enthalpy]

Norwegians buy many electric cars, so we only need a user to testify. I bet the problem is solved, or it would be a no-go there.

[John Cuthber]

Adding a layer of insulation to a vehicle isn't difficult; it's just that nobody thought about it before because they had plenty of heat available.
Looking at the figures, the lowest power Ford Focus or WV Golf- a fairly typical car- delivers about twice as much heat as my new gas boiler uses to heat the whole house.

We might end up with double glazed cars , which will be interesting.

[Danijel Gorupec]

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

We might end up with double glazed cars , which will be interesting.

Still, you occasionally need some window heating during winter. Do all electric cars have heating mesh also in front window?

[Bond777]

I guess if there would be some way to tap all the waste heat created by electric motor and direct it inside of passenger compartment, it should be almost sufficient to create comfortable temperature inside. In some models like Tesla, which use oil cooled electric motors, it should be especially easy to do. You can just run oil tubes from motor inside the salon or use some heat exchanger for this.