Dogs and/or Cats

[beecee]

A subjective debate/discussion certainly but imo dogs win by a country mile! I must admit I have never had a cat, but do have good friends who do have them. Dogs are a man's best friend, they are a companion, they are a mate! I have had over my lifespan of 76 years, a Labrador, a German Shepard, and two Rotweillers, My last Rotty named Rocky lived until he was 13.5 years old...a pretty good age for that breed. He was unbelievable! I once spied a couple of Seven Day Adventists doing the rounds, coming down the street, and decided to put Rocky and the front porch, and told him to sit and stay. As they approached our gate and started to open, he stood up and gave one almighty bark! ( he did have a loud bark] And just stood there watching them. They had a bit of a conversation and then decided to give my place a miss...thankfully as I was watching some footy. I let Rocky back in and he retruned to what he was previously doing...laying at my feet, licking out my toe jam from between my toes.

Let me add that having had various large dogs that have undeserved reputations, I have never ever looked like having any problems with any of my dogs, with regards to any of such undesereved reputations. In fact both my Rotties were big sooks!

I now have two Miniature red Dachsunds, a breed I am familiar with as my parents did breed them...19 puppies in all, in three litters.

I have a friend who has a Malmute another beautiful animal. 

In any report of any dog attacks, that make the news, always my first reaction, is to  get the appropriate authorities to question/interview/investigate the owners themselves. I venture to say that in near all cases, the blame for such attacks can be levelled at the owners. 

[Phi for All]

12 hours ago, beecee said:

A subjective debate/discussion certainly but imo dogs win by a country mile!

Win what though? For companionship, both dogs and cats have their place, but you can't really compare them. Their overall demeanor is completely different, and both offer different kinds of comfort. I've had both, and love them for different reasons.

There is something about a cat's independence that makes it more significant when they approach you for attention. Dogs are VERY focused on what's going on with the pack, and more trainable because of it, imo. We expect dogs to do as they're told, and can rely on them for actual work, but for those who just want a companion, it's hard to pass up the purr.

[swansont]

13 hours ago, beecee said:

A subjective debate/discussion certainly but imo dogs win by a country mile! I must admit I have never had a cat, but do have good friends who do have them. Dogs are a man's best friend, they are a companion, they are a mate! I have had over my lifespan of 76 years, a Labrador, a German Shepard, and two Rotweillers, My last Rotty named Rocky lived until he was 13.5 years old...a pretty good age for that breed. He was unbelievable! I once spied a couple of Seven Day Adventists doing the rounds, coming down the street, and decided to put Rocky and the front porch, and told him to sit and stay. As they approached our gate and started to open, he stood up and gave one almighty bark! ( he did have a loud bark] And just stood there watching them. They had a bit of a conversation and then decided to give my place a miss...thankfully as I was watching some footy. I let Rocky back in and he retruned to what he was previously doing...laying at my feet, licking out my toe jam from between my toes.

Let me add that having had various large dogs that have undeserved reputations, I have never ever looked like having any problems with any of my dogs, with regards to any of such undesereved reputations. In fact both my Rotties were big sooks!

I now have two Miniature red Dachsunds, a breed I am familiar with as my parents did breed them...19 puppies in all, in three litters.

I have a friend who has a Malmute another beautiful animal. 

In any report of any dog attacks, that make the news, always my first reaction, is to  get the appropriate authorities to question/interview/investigate the owners themselves. I venture to say that in near all cases, the blame for such attacks can be levelled at the owners. 

Did a dog write this?

 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

Win what though?

Apple's or maybe orange's, if it's Christmas... 

[Area54]

15 hours ago, beecee said:

In any report of any dog attacks, that make the news, always my first reaction, is to  get the appropriate authorities to question/interview/investigate the owners themselves. I venture to say that in near all cases, the blame for such attacks can be levelled at the owners. 

Absolutely. While one acknowledges that the ancestral wolf lies somewhere within any and all dogs, nurture far outranks nature in how that is expressed. This reminds me of another, perhaps less acknowledged truth: humans train dogs, but cats train humans. My current cat has trained me to rise at 3:00 am to give it its early morning feeding: resistance is futile. 

That said, I'm fundamentally a dog person. The sequence of several cats were all adoptions, supported by a wife who objects to dogs. I'm just suspicious about feline motivation: are they sitting next to me for warmth, or for companionship? Which is it? Clearly that Schrodinger fellow knew a thing or two about cats!

[Janus]

21 minutes ago, Area54 said:

 I'm just suspicious about feline motivation: are they sitting next to me for warmth, or for companionship? Which is it? Clearly that Schrodinger fellow knew a thing or two about cats!

Right after I retired, I started taking morning walks for the exercise.  My wife usually would join me, but a few weeks in she tweaked her back and couldn't, so I took my walks solo for a while.

We had a cat at the time.  Every day, when I got back from my morning walk, he come running, meowing, jump up onto the back of the sofa (which was near the front door), And wait for me to put my head down so he could give me a head bump.  Then he'd jump down and go about his business.  He'd already been fed, and my wife always fed him anyway, and It wasn't as if he had been lonely, as she had been home with him all morning, he just wanted to greet me when I came home. 

Like others here, I've had both dogs and cats as pets over my lifetime, and understand the pluses and minuses of both.

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, swansont said:

Did a dog write this?

Dachsund's are built for using the keyboard. Maybe we should call the Australian authorities and have them check on beecee?

[zapatos]

18 hours ago, beecee said:

In any report of any dog attacks, that make the news, always my first reaction, is to  get the appropriate authorities to question/interview/investigate the owners themselves. I venture to say that in near all cases, the blame for such attacks can be levelled at the owners. 

I currently have two dogs and a cat. If I had to choose only one species it would be dog, but the cat is also a great source of fun and amusement.

With regard to this part of your post, I have to take issue. I'm not sure how else to put it, but where the rubber meets the road, a dog is still an unpredictable animal.

My son happens to be a pediatrician and he tells horror stories of dogs biting children, family members and not. Dogs that the parents trusted around their children implicitly. 

Children are poor at guessing when a dog wants to be left alone, is sick or injured, feels cornered, when the child is getting close to their food bowl, are a rival for the owners attention, etc. They keep approaching dogs to pet them, get in their faces, and are frequently bit in the face which can leave life long scars.

My dogs are sweethearts but they still spend a lot of time locked in the bedroom when my toddler grandchildren are around.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by zapatos

[Phi for All]

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

My dogs are sweethearts but they still spend a lot of time locked in the bedroom when my toddler grandchildren are around.

We always have to remember that puppies have instincts the toddlers don't. A puppy will freeze when mama bites its head as a warning for intolerable behavior. A toddler resists, so mama dog bites harder to make her point, which makes the child resist harder. Bad wiring going on there.

[Janus]

47 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Children are poor at guessing when a dog wants to be left alone, is sick or injured, feels cornered, when the child is getting close to their food bowl, are a rival for the owners attention, etc. They keep approaching dogs to pet them, get in their faces, and are frequently bit in the face which can leave life long scars.

My dogs are sweethearts but they still spend a lot of time locked in the bedroom when my toddler grandchildren are around.

Growing up, we had a Siamese cat which had quite a reputation (It once chased a dog several times it size off our property.)  Some people got to the point, that when they came over the first thing they would do was look around nervously and ask "Where's the cat"?  And we had to warn people that if the cat came around don't reach down to pet her or your likely to pull your hand back bloodied. 

Now he wasn't that way with anyone in our household. (There were times when the cat would get under Mom's feet in the kitchen and she'd just pick her up with one hand and toss her out, and cat did nothing.)  AND, she was not that way around children. Kids could get away with anything, and while she might eventually go off and hide, she never once even hissed at them.   It's like she knew that they were young, didn't know any better and deserved leeway.

[joigus]

Oh, no. No!!! We will never see the end of this. It's like... who do you love most, your mum or your dad?, what came first, the egg or the chicken?, who was Jack the Ripper?

Ok. My answer is...

Spoiler

can of worms!

 

[beecee]

6 hours ago, swansont said:

Did a dog write this?

😊

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

I currently have two dogs and a cat. If I had to choose only one species it would be dog, but the cat is also a great source of fun and amusement.

With regard to this part of your post, I have to take issue. I'm not sure how else to put it, but where the rubber meets the road, a dog is still an unpredictable animal.

My son happens to be a pediatrician and he tells horror stories of dogs biting children, family members and not. Dogs that the parents trusted around their children implicitly. 

Children are poor at guessing when a dog wants to be left alone, is sick or injured, feels cornered, when the child is getting close to their food bowl, are a rival for the owners attention, etc. They keep approaching dogs to pet them, get in their faces, and are frequently bit in the face which can leave life long scars.

My dogs are sweethearts but they still spend a lot of time locked in the bedroom when my toddler grandchildren are around.

 

With children of course training and supervision of both is necessary. My Son grew up with both our Rotties and they both would love romping and rolling  about the house. My sister when visiting with here children when they were toddlers was also apprehensive. The resultant visits though were an eye opener for her, as Rocky would lay beside her baby on a rug on the floor, and follow her everywhere as she crawled. As her kids grew older, they would also love romping about the house with Rocky. He was around 62kgm by the way, saw the sister's kids about once a month. The only time watchfullness and precautions were necessary was when they came over to our place, and the "boisterous" welcome Rocky would give her and the kids. At 62kgms and a kid at around 20kgms  or so, jumping up when welcoming was a no no!

Every now and then my wife would have her family and friends in the Fijian community over at our place [anywhere between 6 to a dozen people, sometimes more] As per Fijian tradition, all the furniture would be pushed aside and everyone would be sitting on Fijian mats, while someone mixed the yaqona (kava) Rocky would always give warning barks as they arrived and Fijians being Fijians and not really into dogs and such, were absolutely shit scared of him. I would wait until all had arrived and were sitting on the floor, and then I would let Rocky inside. The reaction/s was priceless! Rocky would approach each and everyone individually and give them all a lick until they recipricated and gave him a pat. Truelly priceless! He would then just lay down as we all went about drinking and chatting.

While I have never had a cat, I do love all animals, and appreciate the love a cat can bring into any household.

Once with a couple of mates and passing a warehouse, we noticed a Rottweiler dog acting obviously as security for the place. As with most animals I see, I was attracted and walked over the the iron fence. The dog came bounding over barking and showing its teeth and doing its job. I stood my ground as it got to the fence. Eventually it stopped barking, and I moved in closer. It was watching me cautiously and I continued up to the fence. My two mates at this time were telling me I was crazy! I showed him the back of my hand, just this side of the bars on the fence and it sniffed inquisitively. I put my hand inside the bars where if he wanted to, he could easily have bitten me. Instead he just stood there, and after a minute I was patting him and speaking calmly to him. My two mates thought I was mad. I have also approached the American Pit Bull on one occasion,  which also has an undesired reputation in this country. Perhaaaps people who are thinking of getting certain breds of dogs, or any dog for that matter, need to get training first and then licensed. Extreme? I'm not sure, but I do know any dog if trained properly, and given plenty of TLC and treated as part of a family, will be a source of happimess and joy, as corny as that may sound.

PS: Miniature Dachsunds make great bed warmers at night!

 

   

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by beecee

[zapatos]

By coincidence I happened to see this story today. I realize this is just anecdotal.

Quote

An Illinois family is mourning after a 1-year-old girl was attacked and killed Thursday by a family dog, police say.

A’Myrikal Hull had celebrated her first birthday days before on March 7, WAND reported.

Police said A’Myrikal was bitten on the head then rushed to a local hospital were she later died, according to WICS.

Family friend Cory Painter told the Springfield State Journal-Register that the child was near the dog’s food bowl when the attack occurred.

 

“The baby walked by the dog as she was eating and reached for her food,” Painter said, according to the newspaper. “This is nothing new. The dog would eat snacks out of the baby’s hand.”

Painter said the dog was a female “pocket bully,” which is a pit bull and Patterdale terrier mix, WICS reported.

The family has had the dog for about four years, the Journal-Register reported. It’s now in the custody of Sangamon County Animal Control.

Painter added that the dog “was like [A’Myrikal’s] best friend,” WICS reported.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/1-old-dies-she-bitten-173706925.html

[beecee]

21 minutes ago, zapatos said:

By coincidence I happened to see this story today. I realize this is just anecdotal.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/1-old-dies-she-bitten-173706925.html

Yeah, that's terribly sad news. There have been cases in Australia too that I recall. Which is why owners should be educated properly. And yes, despite all the positive accounts I could give regarding dogs and toddlers, they certainly [particularly with large breeds] be supervised around children. 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Yeah, that's terribly sad news. There have been cases in Australia too that I recall. Which is why owners should be educated properly. And yes, despite all the positive accounts I could give regarding dogs and toddlers, they certainly [particularly with large breeds] be supervised around children. 

Yeah, I hate to be the one that brings up this stuff, it's just that I've been hearing a lot about it lately.

But back to the spirit of your OP... 

When I'm on vacation I stop strangers and ask to pet their dogs so I get my fix after not seeing mine for a while. My wife thinks there is something wrong with me. 😆

My dogs also recognize when I'm in distress from being ill and will lie next to me all day.

My son's dog is weirdly intelligent. One day my son and his friends were floating on rafts in a lake not far from shore. An empty chip bag blew into the water and my son told his dog to go get it. She jumped right up, went to the edge of the lake, got the bag and carried it out. She has also done things like go out and chase the cat back in the house on request and other surprising things. She's very easy to train; we had her going out and bringing in the newspaper in short order.

Edited March 23, 2021 by zapatos

[CharonY]

Any animal companion is great, IMO, as at minimum the way we interact with them often tells something about us.

But on the reverse side, we are also finding out interesting bits about how our companions work. The work from Chijiiwa et al (Animal Behaviour 2015 106:123-127) have shown that dogs are doing so-called social eavesdropping. In short, that is the ability to draw social clues by looking at interactions between others. And what they found is that if dogs see that someone refused to help their owners, they avoid taking food from those non-helpers. So they change their behaviour in reaction to negative interactions towards their owners.

So how about cats? Well, they do not care as the same group found out (Chijiiwa et al. Animal Behavior and Cognition, 2021, 8:1 23-25). Either they do not have the ability to read those social clues, or they just don't care so much about their owners.

[OldChemE]

We have both cats and dogs-- very different.  There is a study of cat and dog behavior that suggests that cats seem aloof because they do not understand social behavior as well as dogs.  Details here:  https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210318-why-cats-wont-punish-a-stranger-who-harms-you

[naitche]

6 hours ago, beecee said:

😊

With children of course training and supervision of both is necessary.

 

 people who are thinking of getting certain breds of dogs, or any dog for that matter, need to get training first and then licensed. Extreme?

 

 I do know any dog if trained properly, and given plenty of TLC and treated as part of a family, will be a source of happimess and joy, as corny as that may sound.

 

 

   

 

Yes to the 1st line.

Please No! To the 2nd.

At risk of taking this off topic, Formalized qualification for Dog ownership will have the opposite effect to promoting responsibility, with fewer qualified to lower standards.

Familiarity is needed for responsibility, not standardised responses to a diverse environment. (Dog ownership and husbandry)

You can't legislate your way to responsibility, Only reduce responses available with out cost out weighing their value.

More often than not, the standards proposed make assumptions of dogs, and their environments causing both to be reduced for the standard set.

Not improved, eliminated along with any potential direction they could have taken.

Its a action that takes Domestic Dogs further out of their natural environment. A process predicted by the Kennel Clubs refusal to recognise the species beyond their own breed standards.

The 3rd line has reliability only as long as Dogs are bred for their success and  ability of response in the environments they are being selected into.

Australian legislation already promotes an expectation of Commercial motive and Codes of Practice that will heavily impact on the availability of Dogs to pet market and especially of larger breeds and working breeds that can not easily transfer to Commercial breeding standards. Selection is also badly compromised.

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, naitche said:

At risk of taking this off topic, Formalized qualification for Dog ownership will have the opposite effect to promoting responsibility, with fewer qualified to lower standards.

 

Do you have a citation or is this just your opinion?

1 hour ago, naitche said:

Familiarity is needed for responsibility, not standardised responses to a diverse environment. (Dog ownership and husbandry)

 

Why do you assume training would focus on standardized responses rather gaining familiarity? If familiarity is better, it seems that would be the focus.

Generally speaking, doesn't training and certification increase ability in pretty much every field? I don't see why it would be different with dogs.

[beecee]

7 hours ago, zapatos said:

Yeah, I hate to be the one that brings up this stuff, it's just that I've been hearing a lot about it lately.

But back to the spirit of your OP... 

When I'm on vacation I stop strangers and ask to pet their dogs so I get my fix after not seeing mine for a while. My wife thinks there is something wrong with me. 😆

My dogs also recognize when I'm in distress from being ill and will lie next to me all day.

My son's dog is weirdly intelligent. One day my son and his friends were floating on rafts in a lake not far from shore. An empty chip bag blew into the water and my son told his dog to go get it. She jumped right up, went to the edge of the lake, got the bag and carried it out. She has also done things like go out and chase the cat back in the house on request and other surprising things. She's very easy to train; we had her going out and bringing in the newspaper in short order.

I sometimes look at my dogs with a sad face and moan lightly...(the two mini Dachs) they immediately both jump up and start licking and snuggling into me. They sense things we are only just becoming aware of.

 

3 hours ago, naitche said:

Yes to the 1st line.

Please No! To the 2nd.

At risk of taking this off topic, Formalized qualification for Dog ownership will have the opposite effect to promoting responsibility, with fewer qualified to lower standards.

Let me get straight to the point. Some people should never be allowed to own an animal, particularly a dog. I remember an arsehole who lived in the next street from me, who had two pit bulls. He was next door to a park and often he would on seeing anyone walking their dog, let loose his two terriers and soo them onto the poor unsuspecting person and their dog. I called the police one time, as well as the RSPCA, and thankfully, he was charged and banned from owning dogs for 5 years. This was just after they literally mangled a poor little terrier one day and the owner of that dog testified with regards to the attack. I think he got of bloody lightly, and I told the little punk just that. 

[Endy0816]

Dog vs Cat 

 

Do love my cat but have loved having dogs in the past.

Lot tougher but cats can be trained to a degree. Provided she's not otherwise engaged, she will come when called and is trained to stay in the yard. Additionally she'll help out with any pests that want to freeload.

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Endy0816

[zapatos]

9 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

Lot tougher but cats can be trained to a degree.

I saw a cat show at the circus once. It was awesome!

 

[Phi for All]

3 hours ago, zapatos said:

I saw a cat show at the circus once. It was awesome!

The part where the cat jumps through the paper-covered hoop must've been tough. Cats don't usually eat what they can't smell, and don't jump when they can't see the landing. They do gain confidence over time, but a "leap of faith" seems beyond them (unless there were holes in the paper the audience couldn't see but the cat could use to make out the landing spot?). Once they see it's OK they can repeat it, but the first time through the paper has got to be difficult. 

[naitche]

On 3/23/2021 at 4:00 PM, zapatos said:

Do you have a citation or is this just your opinion?

 

Neither. Logic and application of  biological law.

If you create an organisation for the benefit of the community, then marginalise that community to  their  accreditation, then that memberships purpose is corrupted. From benefiting the community, to imposing 'standards' of acceptability and recognition. 

Certification in this instance would be for the purpose of standardising responses, making them conditional. Not response, Conditions of response.

You can be accredited as say, a Mechanic- but that won't have the same effect because accreditation is not designed to keep machines out the hands of non-accredited persons. The feedback and information flow between  the environment and the accrediting body is intact since the service provided (purpose) remains to the  environment. In that case, accreditation is to better serve the unaccredited. 

So accreditation isn't the problem, restricting familiarity to the accredited is. The purpose is corrupted when environment of the organisation is unrecognised.

if all the value is placed in accreditation, the environment is discredited.

 

 

 

Quote

Why do you assume training would focus on standardized responses rather gaining familiarity? If familiarity is better, it seems that would be the focus.

Generally speaking, doesn't training and certification increase ability in pretty much every field? I don't see why it would be different with dogs.

Standards replace response. Familiarity is then to standards set as acceptable  within the margins of accreditation.I can provide examples to demonstrate how it works in practice and has already damaged the human/dog partnership,but its a long story.

Many working breeds are on their way out , or already failed to maintain their value and purpose through 'accreditation' of Breed or Training Standards  when those condition fail to recognise the diverse environments that inform the purpose.

Restricting resource access to those initiated into an accredited environment serves only that environment.Purpose and responsibility will be lost to the environment over time, not gained. Dog ownership become irrelevant to the broader community who may eventually refuse to support it.

On 3/23/2021 at 6:50 PM, beecee said:

 

 

Quote

Let me get straight to the point. Some people should never be allowed to own an animal, particularly a dog. I remember an arsehole who lived in the next street from me, who had two pit bulls. He was next door to a park and often he would on seeing anyone walking their dog, let loose his two terriers and soo them onto the poor unsuspecting person and their dog. I called the police one time, as well as the RSPCA, and thankfully, he was charged and banned from owning dogs for 5 years. This was just after they literally mangled a poor little terrier one day and the owner of that dog testified with regards to the attack. I think he got of bloody lightly, and I told the little punk just that. 

 We have no disagreement on that point. 

I think responsibility of Dog Ownership depends on our promotion and demonstration of the benefits, not the costs, to others.

Accreditation to experience any lasting personal value or real familiarity though can only reduce its range.The kind of accreditation you propose  isn't based on value to environment, but value to conditional standards .

 

 

 

 

There is value in accreditation subjective to Dogs and the people who own them. Value is always subjective.

Accreditation before ownership though draws an objective line of value between the accrediting body, and its environment.

It will object to its environment.

Its object will be to impose standards.

The value is being applied to the wrong subject.

Same mistake as critical theory, with the incorrect application of value.

[naitche]

The value of Domestic Dogs lies in their commonality and purpose to a diverse human environment, Not in a statehood unequal to that.

Putting Form before Function.